Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Annapurna »

It just crossed my mind.

In case we agree, that men in general, -with the exception of those Buddhist males who read this, of course,- tend to be more aggressive, tend to become physically violent more often , abusive, are more forceful, and women tend to be softer, more actively compassionate than men, then isn't a lot of spiritual cultivation about developing a bit more of the 'female' side in ourselves, the softer and more sensitive side?

Are the men who practice Buddhism and so cultivate themselves, basically rediscovering their female aspects and begin to live them out, whilst others deny them, belittle them or are ashamed of sensitivity, caring, being gentle, being kind and compassionate?

Apropos, "gentle".

What is a perfect gentleman?

A Buddhist?

:anjali:

PS; I am aware of the sutta where 'form' is the issue and that you're stuck when you begin to classify...
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

If we are going to go with such stereotypes (which I don't necessary agree with, but know are popular), then one could also do the terribly over-generalized line of how women need to bring out some particular qualities which are often associated with the male of the species.

In short, I think it misses the point. Both males and females have good qualities and need to bring these out, and both also have negative qualities, which need to be overcome.

Conze does have an interesting comment on what you say though, but I'm not going to quote it for you right now! Somewhere in his article "Hate, Love and Perfect Wisdom", pg. 188 in Thirty Years of Buddhist Studies, 1967.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Dan74 »

This sounds like the classical Jungian project which has found its way into popular culture. The man reconnect with their Anima and women with the Animus. Jung's formulation (being the first) was pretty simplistic.

In any case I guess in meditation things come up and in facing them we become more balanced and well-rounded as individuals.

_/|\_
_/|\_
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by chownah »

Men in general wear pants more and women tend to wear skirts more so does this mean that women who wear pants are getting in touch with their masculine sides and the men in Burma who wear skirts are getting in touch with their feminine sides?

Men in general have more facial hair while women generally have a higher percentage of body fat....does this mean that women with facial hair are more in touch with their masculine side and fat men are more in touch with their femine side?

Men in general have A and women in general have B so does this mean that if women have A etc. and if men have B etc.?

chownah
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhamma Training isn't about balancing the sexes, both have the same desirable and undesirable qualities which need to be uprooted.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Annapurna »

Paññāsikhara wrote:If we are going to go with such stereotypes (which I don't necessary agree with, but know are popular), then one could also do the terribly over-generalized line of how women need to bring out some particular qualities which are often associated with the male of the species.

In short, I think it misses the point. Both males and females have good qualities and need to bring these out, and both also have negative qualities, which need to be overcome.

Conze does have an interesting comment on what you say though, but I'm not going to quote it for you right now! Somewhere in his article "Hate, Love and Perfect Wisdom", pg. 188 in Thirty Years of Buddhist Studies, 1967.
Panna, for me those are not stereotypes, but observations of the majority.
Both males and females have good qualities and need to bring these out, and both also have negative qualities, which need to be overcome.
Ah...lets get away from good and bad, that is not the point.

Conze does have an interesting comment on what you say though, but I'm not going to quote it for you right now!
Why not? :shock:
Somewhere in his article "Hate, Love and Perfect Wisdom", pg. 188 in Thirty Years of Buddhist Studies, 1967.
Aha. :buddha1:
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Annapurna »

chownah wrote:Men in general wear pants more and women tend to wear skirts more so does this mean that women who wear pants are getting in touch with their masculine sides and the men in Burma who wear skirts are getting in touch with their feminine sides?

Men in general have more facial hair while women generally have a higher percentage of body fat....does this mean that women with facial hair are more in touch with their masculine side and fat men are more in touch with their femine side?

Men in general have A and women in general have B so does this mean that if women have A etc. and if men have B etc.?

chownah
Thanks for making fun of the topic.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by DNS »

These are all stereotypes of course and there are plenty of exceptions (that prove the rule :tongue: ) , but still an interesting topic.

Women are often associated with compassion, nurturing, mothering, and loving-kindness; two of the brahma viharas: metta and karuna.

Men are often associated with being more stoic, not showing their emotions, not crying, etc; two of the brahma viharas: upekkha and mudita.

So maybe, men are becoming more feminine, but women are also becoming more masculine, with the practice. Or maybe we are all becoming neuter. :tongue:
User avatar
Monkey Mind
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:56 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Monkey Mind »

Ajahn Vayama reminded us in a podcast that we have all been men and we have all been women in countless previous lives. It is not so much that we are "male" or "female" in this life, but we have the capacity, and the history/ kammic energy for both.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
User avatar
AdvaitaJ
Posts: 234
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:17 am
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by AdvaitaJ »

Annabel,

Not more feminine, but definitely more peaceful Speaking for myself, I am much less inclined to anger, much less prone to planning for conflict, and quite possibly, much less ready to deal with conflict should it arise. My wife has noticed the change in me over these past months and, on rare occasion, she says "Don't forget how to be a Marine." (I was in the Marine Corps in my youth and it made a powerful and lasting impression on me.)

Regards: AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Dan74 wrote:This sounds like the classical Jungian project which has found its way into popular culture. The man reconnect with their Anima and women with the Animus. Jung's formulation (being the first) was pretty simplistic.

In any case I guess in meditation things come up and in facing them we become more balanced and well-rounded as individuals.

_/|\_
Haha! Sounds like you read the Conze article I referred to above!
II. My second observation concerns the feminity of the Prajnaparamita. Feminine by th grammatical form of her name, she is explicitly called a "mother" in the sutras themselves, and, on statues and images, the femininity of her form is rarely in doubt. To be psychologically sound, a religion should take heed of the feminine principle in our psyche, which has at least three functions to fulfil: First of all, as a representation of the mother, it helps to dissolve hindering residues of infantile conflict. J. Campbell in The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949) has dealt superbly with this aspect of the problem, and I must refer my readers to his book. Secondly, incorporation of the feminine force deals with sexual incompleteness in that it completes the male by bringing his own femininity to the fore. Finally, this approach deals with sexual insufficiency in that, on a spiritual level, it satisfies the perpetual hankering after union with the sexual opposite.

Individuals, while generally male or female, are composed of a mixture of masculine and feminine elements, dispositions and attitudes. Both men and women can be more or less "masculine" or "feminine". Persons are incomplete if they try to exclude either. They must aim at a balance between the two. In the words of a psychologist*:

"Either principle pursued exclusively leads to death. Whoever unites them in himself has the best chance of life. This is the ultimate meaning of 'the spiritual marriage'. In this sense God is both Father and Mother, and is therefore androgynous. Love-with-Law and Law-without-Love are both false positions. The true position is Love-creating-Law and Law-revealing-Love. The monistic principle is primary, but insufficient to itself."

Where meditation is carried on by men, they most complete themselves by fostering the feminine element in their personality. They must practise passivity and loose softness. They must learn to open freely the gates of nature, and to let the mysterious and hidden forces of this world penetrate into them, stream in and through them. When they identify themselves with the Perfection of Wisdom, they merge with the principle of Femininity (Jung's anima), without which they would be mutilated men. Like a woman the Perfection of Wisdom deserves to be courted and wooed. Meditation on her as a Goddess has the purpose of getting inside her, identifying oneself with her, becoming her, as a man wishes to merge his body with that of a woman.

* H D Jennings-White, Guide to Mental Health, 1939, p. 258.

Conze, E "Hate, Love and Perfect Wisdom", in Thirty Years of Buddhist Studies, pg. 188, 1967.
And, as Dan says, there would be a complementary side for the animus in women, too.
Interesting to note, that though Conze says all this, he was known as having an almighty virulent evil temper, too. Maybe he was writing it as a memo to himself. :P
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
catmoon
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:59 am

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by catmoon »

Annabel wrote: It just crossed my mind.

In case we agree, that men in general, -with the exception of those Buddhist males who read this, of course,- tend to be more aggressive, tend to become physically violent more often , abusive, are more forceful, and women tend to be softer, more actively compassionate than men, then isn't a lot of spiritual cultivation about developing a bit more of the 'female' side in ourselves, the softer and more sensitive side?

This looks to me like an attempt to buttress the idea that females are superior and "own" spirituality. Very unhealthy.


One might just as easily say that that Buddhism leads to the development of virtues such as strength, courage and perserverance, therefore spiritual progress must mean becoming masculine.
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Kim OHara »

catmoon wrote:
Annabel wrote: ... men in general ... tend to be more aggressive, tend to become physically violent more often , abusive, are more forceful, and women tend to be softer, more actively compassionate than men, then isn't a lot of spiritual cultivation about developing a bit more of the 'female' side in ourselves, the softer and more sensitive side?
... One might just as easily say that that Buddhism leads to the development of virtues such as strength, courage and perserverance, therefore spiritual progress must mean becoming masculine.
One could certainly say both of those things - and then throw them away, because it's better and simpler to say that spiritual progress is a matter of redressing our imbalances and shortcomings. Identifying each problem area as 'masculine' or 'feminine' is not very useful, IMO, because it subtly reinforces stereotypical behaviour and expectations.
:juggling:

Kim
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by cooran »

Good post Kim. :smile:

Why concentrate on masculine or feminine?

What difference does being a woman make
When the mind is well-composed,
When knowledge is proceeding on,
When one rightly sees into Dhamma?
Indeed for whom the question arises:
"Am I a man or a woman?"
Or, "Am I even something at all?"
To them alone is Mara fit to talk!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Does Buddhism mean we "become" more 'feminine'?

Post by Dan74 »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Dan74 wrote:This sounds like the classical Jungian project which has found its way into popular culture. The man reconnect with their Anima and women with the Animus. Jung's formulation (being the first) was pretty simplistic.

In any case I guess in meditation things come up and in facing them we become more balanced and well-rounded as individuals.

_/|\_
Haha! Sounds like you read the Conze article I referred to above!
No I haven't read it yet. But I have heard that Conze was pretty keen on Jung's ideas.

I found his writings in e-format sometime ago. If anyone needs - lots are very hard to find in book form - just ask.

_/|\_
_/|\_
Post Reply