"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby christopher::: » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:26 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.


"Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

source: Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:33 pm

christopher::: wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.


"Luminous, monks, is the mind.{I,v,9}

And changing with extreme rapidity from moment to moment. Is this "luminosity" nibbana as seems to cafael claim? Not at all. It is that instant of awareness that happens before the khandhas of saññā and sankhāra kick in. Is it what is cultivated by mindfulness practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:48 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:No, I'm not making any such claims and it's clear from my post that I wasn't. My point was that there is nothing to appeal to except experience, not mine but yours. That's a fundamental problem when dealing with inner life.

you said
Buddha did the same thing though, and asked others to confirm his teachings through practice. I don't suggest that my discourse is anywhere near the same level though

I responded
your making claims of being akin to the Buddha to some extent, and being a teacher here?

akin means similar to
discourse means teaching in one sense of the word, with the example of the Buddha it seamed to be the most appropriate meaning.

others have pointed this out, you have made claims to high meditative states, and that is why you should be listened to, so it isn't to much of a strech to reach this conclusion.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:53 pm

christopher::: wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.


"Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

source: Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

:anjali:

As Thannisaro Bhikku says in his notes to the Sutta, the luminous mind is what the meditator is trying to develop. In this sense " luminous mind" should not be confused with any concept like Buddhadhatu. Therefore " we " do not have luminous minds except potentially. Few of us can claim to be " well instructed disciples of the noble ones". An epithet that implies a high degree of realisation. For most of us I would suggest instants of awareness is all we can claim with any honesty.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Jechbi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:05 pm

alan wrote:Jechbi--many more ways for the mind to proliferate outside Therevada!
This is a perilous conceit.

tiltbillings wrote:You claim that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught. I am waiting for you to show us.
This is impossible to show. Even if it were true that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught (hypothetically), unless one has attained to some abhinna or has finished the task for oneself, there's no possible way to show this.

I think we can all agree with the often-repeated stanza from the suttas: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One." But the discussion in this thread appears to be stepping off from two completely different platforms:

(Platform 1) The institution of Theravada Buddhism is or is not the singular path that the Buddha taught.

(Platform 2) Individuals based on their own past and present kamma can or cannot apprehend Dhamma teachings, regardless of the faith tradition in which they happen to find themselves in this present lifetime.

The first platform focuses on the efficacy of Theravada Buddhism. The second platform focuses on the content of individual kamma. I have the sense that Cafael Dust is trying to argue from the second platform, but is doing so in a way that prompts people to respond from the first platform.

Ben wrote:Apart from the attainment and teachings of previous Buddhas, Gotama's attainment and teaching is unique to the world. No other teacher has ever provided a path, that when practiced, that leads one from dukkha to bodhi.
Yes, that is my conviction as well. Whenever and wherever we encounter Dhamma teachings, they are the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha taught the complete path for the cessation of suffering.

Does that mean that no elements of Dhamma teachings whatsoever are to be found outside the tradition of Theravada Buddhism? Does that mean that individuals not-yet-enlightened can never, in their own words, use clumsy labels that propel them, individually, along a path that progresses toward a better understanding of Dhamma?

Bhikkhus, this is the direct path* for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain and grief, for the attainment of the true way, for the realization of Nibbana - namely, the four foundations of mindfulness.
What are the four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put awaay covetousness and grief for the world.

* The Pali reads Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo and virtually all translators understand this as a statement upholding satipatthana as an exclusive path. Thus Ven Soma renders it: "This is the only way, O Bhikkhus", and Ven Nyanaponika: "This is the sole way, monks" Nm however points out that ekayana maggo a MN12.37-42 has the unambiguous contextual meaning of "a path that goes in one way only," and so he renders the phrase in this passage to. The expression used here, "the direct path," is an attempt to preserve this meaning in a more streamlined phrasing. MA explains ekayana magga
as a single path, not a divided path; a way that has to be walked by oneself alone.
-- MN10, Satipatthana Sutta

Indeed. This exclusive path is not any one technique or methodology. Rather, this exclusive path is the underlying process necessary for the cessation of suffering. It is a way that has to be walked by oneself alone. When we have the kamma (in the sense of volitional action) to find and follow a teacher who can propel us along this path, we have an opportunity to take some steps along this exclusive path. But I don't think we should make the mistake of identifying any single tradition, technique or methodology as what the Buddha refers to when he says, Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo.

In my opinion, it's good for us to examine our own path and practice.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:36 pm

Jechbi-- In this context I'm saying it is so much easier to proliferate ideas, concepts, and thoughts within the Mahayana. "Emptiness", "Original Nature", etc. They don't really give us any way to judge them. Too easy to just go off on a non-rational rant. Within the Therevada, however, claims must be backed up. That is why I say there are many more ways for the mind to proliferate
outside Therevada.
Don't see anything dangerous or conceited about that.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:38 pm

I think my mistake has been in conflating the results of nibbana with nibbana itself, which literally translated from Pali means 'no craving' or 'blowing out (of the fires of craving). (source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/515409/The-WA ... -Venerable and http://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8 )

Love, luminous consciousness, which I would call the ground of being, result from nibbana, but nibbana itself is not the ground of being, it is the absence of craving and therefore absence of conscious turning away from exactly what is happening right now.

One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:38 pm

Nor do I Alan.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby alan » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:03 pm

Jechbi,
Not sure if you are using the concept of Kamma correctly.
As for platforms, pretty sure I introduced a similar idea several pages back. Maybe it was another thread, but the basic idea is this: are there many paths up the mountain, or just one? I'm going to say case closed--there is only one. So that leaves us with this this: those who like to pick and choose from different beliefs--are you sure you can trust yourselves to make the right choices?
It's potentially perilous!
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:17 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.


do you know where about that passage is?
sometimes translators use heart instead of mind, but how does the Buddha define love - Metta - and what are the roots of the word?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:38 pm

Hello all,

These Suttas and articles on Nibbana may be of interest:

Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#nibbana

metta
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:32 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:I think my mistake has been in conflating the results of nibbana with nibbana itself, . . .
Love, luminous consciousness, which I would call the ground of being, result from nibbana, but nibbana itself is not the ground of being, it is the absence of craving and therefore absence of conscious turning away from exactly what is happening right now.
And you contine to conflate things. Luminous mind has not been, by the Buddha defined as love. That is your doing, based upon yopur ideas of how you think things should be.

One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.

And heart is used by the Buddha in the same way modern Western people might use it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:36 pm

Jechbi wrote:
alan wrote:Jechbi--many more ways for the mind to proliferate outside Therevada!
This is a perilous conceit.

tiltbillings wrote:You claim that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught. I am waiting for you to show us.
This is impossible to show.
Then it is meaningless to claim. Adding to such meaninglessness is the pressing into service distorted understandungs of Buddhist doctrine.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:38 pm

How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'

Tilt, if it's meaningless to claim other paths lead to enlightenment without proof, why is it not equally so to claim the opposite? Do you have proof?
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:46 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'

Tilt, if it's meaningless to claim other paths lead to enlightenment without proof, why is it not equally so to claim the opposite? Do you have proof?

I do not have to make that claim; however, looking at what it is that the Buddha taught as a way to awakening, it is not found in other "paths."

You, on the other hand, are making a claim for which you have yet to show any real, meaningful, proof.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:00 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'


Manapa already briefly covered this.
What is the pali sentence that translates to "my heart is utterly set free"?
There are a number of translators who translate "citta" as "heart", where others translate it as "mind". So an alternate translation would be "my mind is utterly set free", which has absolutely no connection to love.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:18 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'

Tilt, if it's meaningless to claim other paths lead to enlightenment without proof, why is it not equally so to claim the opposite? Do you have proof?

Cafael
are you ever going to directly answer a question?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:23 pm

this is from Karaniya Metta Sutta Kph 9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81 unfortunately the only place I could think to get the pali was Wikipedia.
this is as Thanissaro translates it

Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;


and the pali with a rough word for word translation from Buddhadatta Mahatheras concise pali english dictionary (should say I only used his dictionary no others)

Mātā yathā niyaṃ puttaṃ āyusā
Mātā = mother
yathā = just as
niyaṃ = one's own
puttaṃ = child
āyusā = life

ekaputtamanurakkhe
eka = one
putta - child/son
manusa = her
rakkhe = protect

Evampi sabbabhūtesū
Evampi = just so
sabba = all
bhūtesū = existence (?)

mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ
mānasaṃ = mind
bhāvaye = develop
aparimānaṃ = imeasurable

manapa's poor attempt at translating wrote:Mātā yathā niyaṃ puttaṃ āyusā
Just as a mother with her life,
Mātā = mother /
yathā = just as /
niyaṃ = one's own /
puttaṃ = child /
āyusā = life /

ekaputtamanurakkhe
would protect her child, her only child
eka = one
putta - child/son
manusa = her /
rakkhe = protect/

Evampi sabbabhūtesū
Just so even for all existance
Evampi = just so
Pi = so even
sabba = all
bhūtesū = existence (?)

mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ
we develop an immeasurable mind
mānasaṃ = mind
bhāvaye = develop
aparimānaṃ = imeasurable
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Ben » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:52 am

Hi Jechbi
Jechbi wrote:Does that mean that no elements of Dhamma teachings whatsoever are to be found outside the tradition of Theravada Buddhism? Does that mean that individuals not-yet-enlightened can never, in their own words, use clumsy labels that propel them, individually, along a path that progresses toward a better understanding of Dhamma?


Thanks for your reply. I would argue that if elements of the Dhamma are found existing outside the Buddhadhamma, and I did give the example of Alara Kalama and Ramaputta (the Buddha's teachers), that it is incomplete. That it is not to suggest that it is worthless. I am reminded of Ashoka's 14th Rock Edict where he directs all within the empire to encourage everyone to engage with their religion, whether they are practicing Buddhadhamma or something else. It is an acknowledgement that there is great beauty and benefit in other paths and the practice of those paths are beneficial, but I still contend they are incomplete because they do not offer a path out of samsara.

In my opinion, it's good for us to examine our own path and practice.

I couldn't agree more. And that goes to the heart of this current discussion. Cafael Dust has offered us comments such as being enlightened, having attained jhanas, and his comment I am the path. Practice is very important with the aim of directly penetrating the Dhamma for oneself through one's own efforts. However, our own experience should not escape the laser-like scrutiny of self examination and the validation of one's experience and insights via the recorded wisdom handed down to us via the Tipitaka, the commentaries and the wisdom of later scholars and the advice and direction of current reputable teachers.

Apart from Cafael Dust's questionable attainments, his assertion that love = nibbana is erroneous. I have not seen Cafael offer any support from the Tipitaka despite numerous requests from me and others. In fact, Cafael's assertion is counter to the Buddhadhamma. While metta can be used as a meditative subject in which to develop insight, the practice, as recounted by Ananda to a householder, instructed him to remain mindful of the compounded and impermanent nature of metta. Metta, however exalted and however that it can be used as a vehicle to enter the Brahma worlds, is still just a dhamma which is devoid of self.
Still, answering your comment In my opinion, it's good for us to examine our own path and practice, the fact remains that here we are at Dhamma Wheel, a forum for the discussion of the Dhamma. As such, some of us may feel compelled to challenge ideas that are counter to the Buddha's teachings.
Good to see you posting back here, my friend!
With metta (not to be confused with Nibbana!)

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:10 am

Ben wrote:Hi Jechbi
Jechbi wrote:Does that mean that no elements of Dhamma teachings whatsoever are to be found outside the tradition of Theravada Buddhism? Does that mean that individuals not-yet-enlightened can never, in their own words, use clumsy labels that propel them, individually, along a path that progresses toward a better understanding of Dhamma?


Thanks for your reply. I would argue that if elements of the Dhamma are found existing outside the Buddhadhamma, and I did give the example of Alara Kalama and Ramaputta (the Buddha's teachers), that it is incomplete.

Basically, when addressing other the subject religions the Buddha argued that where the other religions corresponded to the Eightfold Path that was good, where they they did not, not (DN II 151).

One of the things Cafael stated is that "enlightenment" was inevitable, which is something the Buddha strongly rejected, stating that such a view is disastrous for the welfare of those who followed such a view (AN I 33).

MN 11 PTS: M i 63 Cula-sihanada Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar gives a rather interesting look at how the Buddha viewed other religions. Though not explicitly spelled out in this discourse, but what stands in the background is paticcasamuppada. I have yet to any other path thoroughly grounded in paticcasamuppada, which means full awakening, as understood by the Buddha is not possible.

Where a religion advocates moral responsibility, in that it is good and that should be supported, but that is a long way from stating that all paths lead to the same goal.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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