Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

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Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby suanck » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:42 am

An interesting news reposted on the Buddhist Channel today:

... Ayya Medhanandi, a Buddhist nun, hopes to soon ordain women in the Theravada tradition at her hermitage just west of Perth ...
(this town is in Ontario, Canada -- not to be confused with Perth, Western Australia):


http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=66,8818,0,0,1,0

About Ven Medhanandi and her hermitage: http://www.satisaraniya.ca

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:53 am

Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:06 am

Catmoon

Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby bodhabill » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:21 am

Post by catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:53 pm
Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!


:twothumbsup: ... I wonder if AB rocognised the domino effect as well ... your sleuthing and deduction work is impeccable catmoon

Post by Bankei » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:06 pm
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.


True, but are those Bhikkunis accepted as equals?

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Paññāsikhara » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:31 am

Bankei wrote:Catmoon

Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.


After the couple of transmission from Chinese Dhammagutta lineages in the 80s and 90s, (still continuing to this day), there have been quite a few. After a decade, they started to be just Theravada to Theravada ordinations.

Interesting little historical summary here (2006). (But they are confused about what a "mahayana lineage" is, and should state Dhammagutta.)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:05 am

catmoon wrote:Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!


it is highly unlikely as bhikkhuni ordination was already happening via the Sri Lankan Sangha.
some are singly ordained, (the preceptor at Brahm ordination as an example) and others were double ordained by the Bhishuni sangha of the Dharmagumpa (sp?) Line and Sri Lankan Sangha. wikipedia has all the information normally heard about it.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:07 am

bodhabill wrote:
Post by catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:53 pm
Holy cats this never occurred to me - what if Ajahn Brahm's actions were just the first domino?!


:twothumbsup: ... I wonder if AB rocognised the domino effect as well ... your sleuthing and deduction work is impeccable catmoon

Post by Bankei » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:06 pm
Ajahn Brahm didn't start this - there were already many Bhikkhuni in Thailand (I've read about 30) and a few hundred in Sri Lanka. I think the first 'Theravada' full ordinations were conducted in 1996.


True, but are those Bhikkunis accepted as equals?

With Metta
Bill

There is a thread on this wat somewhere, and from the information they are treated very well, and equally
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby catmoon » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:50 am

Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.

But we shall see. We shall see.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby bodhabill » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:43 am

Hi Manapa

by Manapa » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:07 pm
There is a thread on this wat somewhere, and from the information they are treated very well, and equally


Totally agree re Sati Saraniya Hermitage ... I was really referring to reports that Bhikkhunis in Thailand are not accepted by the mainstream Sangha

Hi catmoon

by catmoon » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:50 pm
Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.


Totally agree with your summation, imho some of the stuff being bandied around at the moment from the WPP wanting to take control of the western monastries show that they know the
dam in the process of crumbling
as well

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby suanck » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:24 am

catmoon wrote:Well, whatever the previous history, the current situation appears to this mind like a dam in the process of crumbling. It seems to me like there is too much water coming through the hole now, the dam is past saving.

But we shall see. We shall see.


I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).

However, it will take time...

First of all, the female postulant (anagarika) must spend at least 1 year in white-robe, observing 8 precepts (this stage is recommended, but not compulsory). Then, she must spend 2 more years as a female novice (samaneri) -- observing 10 precepts -- before receiving full ordination as a bhikkhuni. At the moment, I don't know if there are many anagarikas or samaneris in the Theravada tradition, especially in the West, are working toward this goal.

In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby cooran » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:59 am

suanck said: In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...


Exactly so Suan. As one who is on a Dana Roster to support just one (sometimes two monks) with food and other requisites, I wonder how many of the vociferous debaters regularly materially support even one or two monks. Not just a swipe of the credit card once or twice a year, but by providng the time, physical effort, food and drinks to keep two monks healthy. This requires each to give at least half to one day for food Dana a month for reliable planning, purchasing, storage, cooking, transporting (35 miles from Brisbane) serving, and cleaning up - and often taking a day's leave to do this each month from work. Recently, we had four visiting monks and a lay meditator to provide for. Many of the dana providers struggled on week days to do this. Accommodation for the monks is in very basic kutis. One kuti being a modified shipping container. This is not to say that those wishing to be ordained of either gender should be prevented - but the question still remains .... how can they live by the Vinaya unless the lay support is much much more than just words on internet lists, and an occasional cash donation.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:04 am

suanck wrote:I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).


How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?

First of all, the female postulant (anagarika) must spend at least 1 year in white-robe, observing 8 precepts (this stage is recommended, but not compulsory). Then, she must spend 2 more years as a female novice (samaneri) -- observing 10 precepts -- before receiving full ordination as a bhikkhuni. At the moment, I don't know if there are many anagarikas or samaneris in the Theravada tradition, especially in the West, are working toward this goal.

There are female postulants at Amaravati, obviously not training for Bhikkhuni ordination, rather for an equivelent to Samaneri (Siladhara ordination), In comparison I found out while there the training is 2 years as an Anagarika and then Siladhara.

In addition, other practical aspects need careful consideration: support from lay community (in actions, not merely in words!), provision of adequate accomodation, and appropriate monastic trainings...

Hopefully the local community will be able to support them fully so they are as self sufficient as possible, without needing to get distracted with drumming up support to often, and then can focus both on their practice and community cohesion.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby suanck » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:18 am

Manapa wrote:
suanck wrote:I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).


How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?


Sorry! What I meant was that the level of support and acceptance (of bhikkhuni ordination) will be increasing, not diminishing, in the West.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby suanck » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:20 am

Chris wrote: As one who is on a Dana Roster to support just one (sometimes two monks) with food and other requisites, I wonder how many of the vociferous debaters regularly materially support even one or two monks. ...


Sadhu sadhu sadhu! Actions speak louder than words.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination: Ontario, Canada

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:15 am

suanck wrote:
Manapa wrote:
suanck wrote:I believe bhikkhuni ordination is an irreversible process, especially in Theravada monasteries in the West. It's not a question of "if", but "when" and "how" (well, that's my humble opinion!).


How do you mean? I believe they can disrobe just like a monk can?


Sorry! What I meant was that the level of support and acceptance (of bhikkhuni ordination) will be increasing, not diminishing, in the West.

Suan

I think the level of support hasn't changed, I think those who think the Theravadin line can not be resurected (so to speak) will need more convincing because they will now be more concerned with it being done in an inappropriate manner (secret cloak and dagger manner) than they would of been before.
Their discipline needs to be impecable. and possibly one way to gain more support is to enrole 2 vinaya experts from each nikkaya the current Bhikkhunis & secular scholars in the field to hammer out what would be acceptable procedure for ordination disciplinery transactions etc so no-one can critique it as being impropperly done, the group doesn't need to accept the line as legitimate (from the historical theravada lineage) but if they can see it as being done propperly the discipline and training is to a high standard etc they may later accept them, as the true inheritors of the lineage of Bhikkhunis.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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