The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

[phil]

Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil

[Cittasanto]

Hi Phil
Sharon Stone - first thing that came to mind when I read your post, remember the earthquake in china.

I think someone has pointed out a reference where the Buddha says the Dhamma & Kamma does not act in that manner in reference to her comments, but the Dhamma just is, it isn't some cosmic force dealing out punishments & rewards we do that to ourselves with our actions.

[phil]

Hi Phil
Sharon Stone - first thing that came to mind when I read your post, remember the earthquake in china.

I think someone has pointed out a reference where the Buddha says the Dhamma & Kamma does not act in that manner in reference to her comments, but the Dhamma just is, it isn't some cosmic force dealing out punishments & rewards we do that to ourselves with our actions.

Hi Manapa

For sure. I must have misheard. Bhikkhu Bodhi must have been referring to wrong views that existed in the Buddha's day rather than the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,

Phil

p.s while I'm here, thanks Manapa and the other gents for feedback in the micro/macro bhava thread. Deep stuff I'll have to ingest for awhile.

[tiltbillings]

Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour.

I sure hope he did not say this as you are presenting it

[cooran]

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly.

If you are maintaining that Bhikkhu Bodhi said such a thing, you need to give a traceable link to where we can also hear this.

[Fede]

I really am all ears.......

[phil]

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly.

If you are maintaining that Bhikkhu Bodhi said such a thing, you need to give a traceable link to where we can also hear this.

Hi Chris

Yes, you're quite right. I'm being disrespectful by even suggesting it. I'm doing my year-end housecleaning today (which I was starting as I listened to that talk) so I'll listen again. And give any clarifications I come up with. Shortly.

Metta,

Phil

[catmoon]

Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil

I would bet he was just pointing out that cause and effect have the appearance of a Cosmic Judge and appear to act like one sometimes. If you pump megatons of gack into the atmosphere and it causes a drought, the chain of events is purely mundane, but it might appear similar to the actions of a Cosmic Judge. And it often appears so, for we can often see clearly the bad consequences of a bad action.

However, it is a huge leap to jump to the position that Dharma is, in fact, a cosmic judge. And it seems to me another huge leap to think that someone of BB's level of education would fall into such a belief.

[phil]

Hi all

Was listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi talks on The Buddha in His Words and was surprised to hear him talk about an idea of The Dhamma being something like a virtuous cosmic energy that sorts things out, causes it, for example, to stop raining in places where the people have been behaving badly. And he speculates in the talk that this might be why global warming is happening now, because of our bad behaviour. I may be misrepresenting what he said - I was doing something else as I listened - but I'm sure he mentionned the global warming part. I'm not familiar with that kind of teaching of a cosmic ruling energy dealing out mass justice, have never come across it in what I've read in the suttanta. Is that sort of thing in there? I'm fairly comfortable with it as a kind of motivating concept, but doesn't seem that it could be in line with Buddhist teaching on reality and it certainly sounds old testament-ish. Bhikkhu Bodhi is very interested in Chinese language as those who've listened to his MN talks know, could it be a Mahayana teaching sneaking into his point of view?

Metta,

Phil

I would bet he was just pointing out that cause and effect have the appearance of a Cosmic Judge and appear to act like one sometimes. If you pump megatons of gack into the atmosphere and it causes a drought, the chain of events is purely mundane, but it might appear similar to the actions of a Cosmic Judge. And it often appears so, for we can often see clearly the bad consequences of a bad action.

However, it is a huge leap to jump to the position that Dharma is, in fact, a cosmic judge. And it seems to me another huge leap to think that someone of BB's level of education would fall into such a belief.

Hi Catmoon and Chris and all interested.

OK, I found the exact part of the talk which can be found here.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures based on his book "In the Buddha's Words" http://wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=104
are available here: http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html

It's in the talk on Chapter 4, part a. At the 13:00 mark roughly, Bhikkhu Bodhi starts to talk about the meaning of the word "Dhamma." He talks about the "Indian conception" and "Indian spirituality" that suggests he's not talking about the Buddha's teaching in particular. But he talks at some length about it in a way taht could confuse newcomers. Then around the 19:00 mark, he says that there are suttas that say that when people are behaving in immoral ways, the heavens can stop to rain, the sun not shine etc, and says that perhaps we can see this in global warming, how people's greed leads to eventual changes in the climate. So as Catmoon says, he is just saying that greed can operate in ways that lead to results that might suggest a cosmic judge dealing out punshment, it's just greed at work, that makes sense. But how about these suttas that he says have the sun not shining, rain not falling, because of the behaviour of mankind? Has anyone come across these? I'm not intending to criticize Bhikkhu Bodhi here, though I think he presented the topic here in a way that could lead newcomers to confuse the predominant Indian thinking at that time with the Buddha's teaching. Anyways, have a listen, if you're interested and sorry for having caused any consternation!

Metta,

Phil

[catmoon]

Understanding doesn't come easy and BB was never one to sugarcoat the difficulties or shy away from them. But yes, one certainly would not want to walk into that talk in the middle! A classic demonstration that context determines meaning.

[cooran]

Hello phil, all,

There is a mention in this article by Prof. Lily de Silva - which could have been what BB was refering to?

The Buddhist Attitude Towards Nature by Lily de Silva
EXCERPT
Thus several suttas from the Pali canon show that early Buddhism believes there to be a close relationship between human morality and the natural environment. This idea has been systematized in the theory of the five natural laws (pañca niyamadhamma) in the later commentaries.7 According to this theory, in the cosmos there are five natural laws or forces at work, namely utuniyama (lit. "season-law"), bijaniyama (lit. "seed-law"), cittaniyama, kammaniyama, and dhammaniyama. They can be translated as physical laws, biological laws, psychological laws, moral laws, and causal laws, respectively. While the first four laws operate within their respective spheres, the last-mentioned law of causality operates within each of them as well as among them.
This means that the physical environment of any given area conditions the growth and development of its biological component, i.e. flora and fauna. These in turn influence the thought pattern of the people interacting with them. Modes of thinking determine moral standards. The opposite process of interaction is also possible. The morals of man influence not only the psychological makeup of the people but the biological and physical environment of the area as well. Thus the five laws demonstrate that man and nature are bound together in a reciprocal causal relationship with changes in one necessarily bringing about changes in the other.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... itude.html

metta
Chris

[phil]

Thanks Chris. Interesting commentary. We still don't know what the suttas are that Bhikkhu Bodhi was referring to, but I guess it's not that important to find them. I was thinking of some parittas, like the Mora Sutta, in which if I recall correctly, a peacock looks to the sun at the beginning of its day and the end of its day, and thanks it for the protection and wisdom it provides. It seems like the Buddha's great wisdom is symbolized or embodied by the sun in that sutta. But there's nothing there about the sun "deviating from its course" (as BB puts it) because of bad behaviour of humans. But really, not an important point to figure out.

Metta,

Phil

[mikenz66]

Interesting subject. I'm planning to work through those talks soon.

Without taking any particular stand on the details of what Bhikkhu Bodhi said, I find it intriguing that whenever someone mentions that our kamma can have far-reaching and unpleasant vipaka many get rather defensive. I recall a long and bitter thread on E-Sangha about this issue. According to the Buddha it is futile to speculate about the details of the workings of kamma but it is certainly said in the Suttas that it can have unpleasant effects. These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow, or being killed by a tsumami...

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike, all,

These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow...

It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.

As for the tsunamis and such... if you feel you can resolve what happens in these events with commentarial expositions such as the five niyamas, or Abhidhamma classifications such as the twenty-four paccaya which attempt to provide a micro-level analysis of causality then that's fine (or even your own scientific inclinations for that matter). Or of course you could take a "suttavadin" approach and disregard these teachings of the elders, but I don't think this would be your inclination. Either way, I'd be interested in know how you resolve the loose ends!

As for the question of "The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?", the wardens of hell come to mind. The Devadūta Sutta (The Divine Messengers) of the Majjhima Nikaya...

http://www.yellowrobe.com/pali-canon/su ... ngers.html

...speaks of such things as...

10. “Now the wardens of hell torture him with the fivefold transfixing. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through his belly. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

11. “Next the wardens of hell throw him down and pare him with axes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

12. “Next the wardens of hell set him with his feet up and his head down and pare him with adzes. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

13. “Next the wardens of hell harness him to a chariot and drive him back and forth across ground that is burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

14. “Next the wardens of hell make him climb up and down a great mound of coals that are burning, blazing, and glowing. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

15. “Next the wardens of hell take him feet up and head down and plunge him into a red-hot metal cauldron that is burning, blazing, and glowing. He is cooked there in a swirl of froth. And as he is being cooked there in a swirl of froth, he is swept now up, now down, and now across. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings. Yet he does not die so long as that evil action has not exhausted its result.

(... and it continues thusly for quite some time)

This sutta speaks in mundane, conventional terms referring to a "person"...

“Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, did it never occur to you ― an intelligent and mature man ― “I too am subject to birth, I am not exempt from birth: surely I had better do good by body, speech, and mind”?’ He says: ‘I was unable, venerable sir, I was negligent.’ Then King Yama says: ‘Good man, through negligence you have failed to do good by body, speech, and mind. Certainly they will deal with you according to your negligence. But this evil action of yours was not done by your mother or your father, or by your brother or your sister, or by your friends and companions, or by your kinsmen and relatives, or by recluses and brahmins, or by gods: this evil action was done by you yourself, and you yourself will experience its result.’

Yet there are other suttas, spoken by the Buddha instead of King Rama, that speak at a more profound level, such as SN 12.17 (transcribed from Nanamoli's "The Life Of The Buddha according to the Pali Canon") which are deep, connected with emptiness, and transcend the concept of a person (or "you yourself") in relating the causes of suffering...

If one asserts: 'He who makes (suffering) feels (it): being one existent from the beginning, his suffering is of his own making,' then one arrives at eternalism. But if one asserts: 'One makes (suffering), another feels (it): being one existent crushed out by feeling, his suffering is of another's making,' then one arrives at annihilationism. Instead of resorting to either of these extremes, a Perfect One expounds the Dhamma by the middle way:... (that is, by dependent origination and cessation)."

Who then suffers as a result of whose action, and upon whom would 'cosmic enforcement' take place?



Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

These might include being stoned, being killed by a cow...

It's interesting... after reading quite a few suttas, I'm becoming increasing convinced that these random stray cows are simply a literary device to provide an opportunity for the Buddha to detail the status of a bhikkhu (e.g. arahant, non-returner) to others (bhikkhus, and in turn, us). There's a certain standardness to them.

Well, the stoning was Angulimala...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

I don't think anyone would find it surprising that Angulimala would be stoned, after killing 999 people. Why, then would there be surprise that other good or bad things that happen could be a result of kamma?

Of course, since the workings of kamma are said to be unfathomable to anyone other than a Buddha it would be silly to look at some situation and try to say that it was because of such-and-such a particular kamma. But I think that it is therefore equally silly to assert that it could not be the result of some (unknown) kamma.

The point is that actions have consequences. This concept (for more on concepts vs ultimate reality see this thread:http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2986)helps us to maintain our sila. So I prefer to take a forward-looking, rather than backward-looking perspective.

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I don't think anyone would find it surprising that Angulimala would be stoned, after killing 999 people.

Indeed... people have been stoned for much less. Some have even been stoned for crimes of which they have been innocent.

Why, then would there be surprise that other good or bad things that happen could be a result of kamma?

I'd be interested to know what you mean by "things" as it's particularly pertinent to these discussions. In the Dhamma, "kamma" is paired with "vipaka", its result.

As we see in this definition of vipaka...

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vipaaka.htm

'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life.

Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma.

On this subject s. titthāyatana, karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80).

Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthāna) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipāka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.

By way of example, if I throw a stone at an empty can, sitting on a fence and cause it to be dinted, then the new form of the can could be said to be kamma-produced, but it is not vipaka. The action, the kamma, was the throwing of the stone... and what was the mind state associated with the throwing of the stone? It is the mind state behind the action which will determine its mental result. As it is with the case of the stone thrown at the can, so it is with the clods thrown at Angulimala.

Of course, since the workings of kamma are said to be unfathomable to anyone other than a Buddha it would be silly to look at some situation and try to say that it was because of such-and-such a particular kamma.

Agreed. The Buddha may well have said this in order to stop people indulging in papanca regarding kamma and its effects, and to stop people wrongly attributing events and perceived fortunes and misfortunes to kamma. Yet, the Buddha did say in AN 6.63 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#part-5 )...

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.'

... so we certainly should not put the issue of kamma away and ignore it. The challenge is to understand it experientially and in accordance with the Dhamma, as the Buddha encourages, rather than as a subject for papanca.

The point is that actions have consequences. This concept ... helps us to maintain our sila. So I prefer to take a forward-looking, rather than backward-looking perspective.

Yes... as a morality teaching, looking forward is better than looking back, but as a subject for insight, the best place to observe kamma and its workings are here and now, through mindfulness and meditation.



Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

You're starting to confuse me. (And, strangely for you, you're arguing from Abhidhamma definitions rather than from the Suttas...).

In answer to your question, I'm not ruling out any "thing", since the results of kamma are unknowable by non-Buddhas.

What sorts of things, then, do you think could possibly be caused by kamma?

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

You're starting to confuse me

If you can explain precisely what is confusing you, perhaps I can explain or restate in an alternate manner.

strangely for you, you're arguing from Abhidhamma definitions rather than from the Suttas...).

It's more that the suttas don't specifically address the issue, whereas the later expositions do. The suttas certainly don't say otherwise.

In answer to your question, I'm not ruling out any "thing", since the results of kamma are unknowable by non-Buddhas.

The suttas however say otherwise. AN 6.63 as quoted before, for example (especially the bolded section)...

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

What sorts of things, then, do you think could possibly be caused by kamma?

The diverse results, dependent on contact, as coloured in red above.

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

What sorts of things, then, do you think could possibly be caused by kamma?

The diverse results, dependent on contact, as coloured in red above.

And so presumably kamma to be experienced in the human world
could include being swept away by a tsumani, or being in a world that is experiencing warming?

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

And so presumably kamma to be experienced in the human world
could include being swept away by a tsumani, or being in a world that is experiencing warming?

But remember... kamma is action, and tsunamis and global warming aren't kamma. I think you've accidentally conflated kamma with vipaka, and forgotten that vipaka is mental.

Kamma to be experienced in the human world is me throwing a stone at a can... not some "force" hurling a tsunami in a particular direction.

Metta,
Retro.