Desire for Enlightenment

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Lombardi4
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Desire for Enlightenment

Post by Lombardi4 »

Desire for Enlightenment: a hindrance or a help?
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BlackBird
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by BlackBird »

a help.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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bodom
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by bodom »

This would be considered a wholesome desire. Once you reach enlightenment both wholesome and unwholesome desires are of course given up. There is a sutta given by Ananda on this topic if anyone has the link.

:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by DNS »

:thumbsup:

Good to see two affirmative responses already. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say that enlightenment is not to be desired (a misconception, in my opinion). Certainly if it becomes an obsession, it could be counter-productive, but in general, I think it is a wholesome desire.
Chanda: intention, desire, will; zeal

3. As a good quality it is a righteous will or alertness dhamma-chanda and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts see: padhāna The Bhikkhu rouses his will chandam janeti...; If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power see: iddhipāda

Maha Thera Nyanatiloka. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Buddhist Publication Society, first edition 1952.
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cooran
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

A little from Ajahn Chah:

"Why is the practice so difficult and arduous? Because of desires.
As soon as we sit down to meditate we want to become peaceful. If we didn't want to find peace we wouldn't sit, we wouldn't practice. As soon as we sit down we want peace to be right there, but wanting the mind to be calm makes for confusion, and we feel restless. This is how it goes. So the Buddha says, "Don't speak out of desire, don't sit out of desire, don't walk out of desire,...Whatever you do, don't do it with desire." Desire means wanting. If you don't want to do something you won't do it. If our practice reaches this point we can get quite discouraged. How can we practice? As soon as we sit down there is desire in the mind. It's because of this that the body and mind are difficult to observe. If they are not the self nor belonging to self then who do they belong to? It's difficult to resolve these things, we must rely on wisdom. The Buddha says we must practice with "letting go," isn't it? If we let go then we just don't practice, right?...Because we've let go.

Suppose we went to buy some coconuts in the market, and while we were carrying them back someone asked:
"What did you buy those coconuts for?"
"I bought them to eat."
"Are you going to eat the shells as well?"
"No."
"I don't believe you. If you're not going to eat the shells then why did you buy them also?"

Well what do you say? How are you going to answer their question?
We practice with desire. If we didn't have desire we wouldn't practice. Practicing with desire is //tanha//.

Contemplating in this way can give rise to wisdom, you know. For example, those coconuts:
Are you going to eat the shells as well? Of course not. Then why do you take them? Because the time hasn't yet come for you to throw them away. They're useful for wrapping up the coconut in. If, after eating the coconut, you throw the shells away, there is no problem. Our practice is like this.

The Buddha said, "Don't act on desire, don't speak from desire, don't eat with desire." Standing, walking, sitting or reclining...whatever...don't do it with desire. This means to do it with detachment. It's just like buying the coconuts from the market. We're not going to eat the shells but it's not yet time to throw them away. We keep them first. This is how the practice is. Concept and Transcendence [*] are co-existent, just like a coconut. The flesh, the husk and the shell are all together. When we buy it we buy the whole lot. If somebody wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells that's their business, we know what we're doing. "
- Food for the heart.

metta
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by puthujjana »

Ven. Ananda wrote:"'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

- AN 4.159
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bodom
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by bodom »

This is from Analayo's Satipatthana commentary containing Ananda's quote i was looking for.

At S V 272, Ananda countered the proposal that to overcome desire using desire would be a task without end with the argument that the desire for realization will automatically subside once realization is gained. Similarly, according to A 11 145, it is on the basis of "craving" (for the destruction of the influxes) that craving (in general) will be overcome. Also Sn 365, where the Buddha spoke approvingly of someone longing to attain nibbana. The importance of "desire" as an aspect of the path leading to realization is also exemplified in the canonical presentation of the four roads to power (iddhipadda), one of which is desire (chanda).

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by wolf22 »

DNS wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:37 pm :thumbsup:

Good to see two affirmative responses already. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say that enlightenment is not to be desired (a misconception, in my opinion). Certainly if it becomes an obsession, it could be counter-productive, but in general, I think it is a wholesome desire.
Chanda: intention, desire, will; zeal

3. As a good quality it is a righteous will or alertness dhamma-chanda and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts see: padhāna The Bhikkhu rouses his will chandam janeti...; If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power see: iddhipāda

Maha Thera Nyanatiloka. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Buddhist Publication Society, first edition 1952.

This seems to be a bit of an odd one.

In a Q & A with ajahn chah he said the following to someone in regards to 'not getting anywhere': 'This is very important. Don't try to get anywhere in the practice. The very desire to be free or to be enlightened will be the desire that prevents your freedom. You can try as hard as you wish, practise ardently night and day, but if it is still with the desire to achieve in mind, you will never find peace.'

I think in this instance perhaps he is more referring to the craving for becoming in practice itself as opposed to the wholesome desire for enlightenment that simply motivates you to put in the right effort without said craving? I wonder what your take is on this? I also remember joseph goldstein in one of his talks saying that he considers the desire for enlightenment a wholesome desire.

I am not entirely sure what it would mean to be motivated to end suffering or to be able to let go without any sort of 'want'. Now perhaps this is not the same as desire but it's not unlike it.
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DNS
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by DNS »

Ananda explains it here, that one uses that wholesome desire to attain awakening and then once that is attained, that desire is allayed; the desire that ends all desires.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... mana_Sutta
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by SarathW »

There is nothing wrong with desire to get well when you are sick.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Post by sunnat »

it can be helpful (not essential) for those who are at the beginning of practice, to want to attain the goal. It's better than wanting a bigger house, for example. It can help to ward off unhelpful mental states. But, like Ananda, who didn't attain enlightenment until after the Buddha had passed away and then only when he let go of wanting to get enlightened, to get to the goal of not wanting by having a mind of wanting is...
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Post by DNS »

sunnat wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:11 am it can be helpful (not essential) for those who are at the beginning of practice, to want to attain the goal. It's better than wanting a bigger house, for example. It can help to ward off unhelpful mental states. But, like Ananda, who didn't attain enlightenment until after the Buddha had passed away and then only when he let go of wanting to get enlightened, to get to the goal of not wanting by having a mind of wanting is...
Actually, he strived for enlightenment to the end:
When the date set for the council came closer, Anuruddha suggested that his brother Ananda should only be admitted if he had overcome the last taints and had become an arahant. He knew the power of such an incentive. When Ananda heard this, he decided to employ every bit of strength and ability he possessed to realize Nibbana. He practiced the four foundations of mindfulness, a way which came most natural to him according to his tendencies. In the early hours of the morning, when he wanted to rest after his exertion, he knew without a doubt the he had attained release from all passions. The next day the council began. A place had been kept for him. Ananda appeared through the air through supernatural power and sat down at his place. When Anuruddha and Kassapa became aware that he had become an arahant, they expressed their brotherly joy with him and opened the council, which took place during the rains retreat.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... section-10
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Post by justindesilva »

sunnat wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:11 am it can be helpful (not essential) for those who are at the beginning of practice, to want to attain the goal. It's better than wanting a bigger house, for example. It can help to ward off unhelpful mental states. But, like Ananda, who didn't attain enlightenment until after the Buddha had passed away and then only when he let go of wanting to get enlightened, to get to the goal of not wanting by having a mind of wanting is...
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Post by justindesilva »

sunnat wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:11 am it can be helpful (not essential) for those who are at the beginning of practice, to want to attain the goal. It's better than wanting a bigger house, for example. It can help to ward off unhelpful mental states. But, like Ananda, who didn't attain enlightenment until after the Buddha had passed away and then only when he let go of wanting to get enlightened, to get to the goal of not wanting by having a mind of wanting is...
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Pondera
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Re: Desire for Enlightenment

Post by Pondera »

Desire for enlightenment ...

In order to attain - must drop off the closer you get to it.

Ultimately - must let go of any and all passion in order to attain and maintain it.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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