Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Bankei wrote: Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
Yes, it has nothing to do with Mahayana. That lineage of bhikkhuni ordination is from other Sthavira lineages.
Manapa wrote:
Ven Brahmavamso: “I am not Mahayana. But as far as I know, as you all have explained – what is the reason for saying that this is not a real ordination? If Somdet Buddhajahn who is my Upajjhaya is able to me that it is really wrong, then I will admit it. But it has to have reason. I have not heard a reason. I don’t understand. And also… (monks explain the reason and there is debate up till 145.32 mins)
Bankei wrote:Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
In order of appearance
Ven Brahmavamso: “I was not the Upajjhaya (Preceptor). There was a bhikkhu[ni] who was the Upajjhaya of the bhikkhunis; it was not me. The ritual was done at the forest monastery in Perth. It was an ordination for bhikkhunis. There was no Upajjhaya; the Pavattini was a bhikkhuni. A bhikkhuni was Pavattini (Upajjhaya). Tathaaloka has been to Thailand long ago. She has 12 Pansa (Vassas/Years since full ordination). She was ordained in the Mahayana in a sect in the United States.
They may of opted to use Mahayana instead of dharmagupta as it would save confussion as to who was being refered to i.e, the lineage of ordination of Bhikkhunis which is uncut and found only in the Mahayana teaching lineage?
Secretary of the Meeting: “Those that have gone to pay homage to Venerable Somdet Phra Buddhajahn (the Acting Sangharaja) at Wat Saket [will know]: he said that this is a Mahayana practice, not Theravadan.”
In one respect he is correct, this vinaya practice is unbroken in the Dhammagupta line which the Mahayana follow. Whether it is literarily correct is another matter but the meaning is clear.
Thera: The Most Venerable Somdet Phra Buddhajahn has said that, ‘If he wants to give ordination, then alright. Let him be Mahayana.’ Then he [Ajahn Brahmavamso] replied, ‘We are not splitting from you, but you are splitting from us into Mahayana.’ This is what he said.”
As it is a Mahayana teaching lineage that still has the Bhikkhuni ordination from the dharmagupta vinaya lineage within it, this may appear confused, although it is relatively clear what they were meaning, or at least discernable.
Thera: “OK, you will not be in the Theravada sect. Are you going to go to the Mahayana sect?”
Meaning the ordination line of the Dharmagupta. It would be interesting to see what someone experienced in vinaya has to say about the transcript, but feel that may possibly not be seen as appropriate to do by those who are experienced to explain the vinaya acts in this manner, although it would be nice to be incorrect about that feeling.
They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).
bodom wrote:
Bankei wrote:Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
Yes, notice it sounds the way Hinayana is used within the Mahayana sect. :anjali:
haha! Exactly what I was thinking. I any Theravadins out there are sick to death of ignorant Mahayanists (which is not all of them) calling their practice "hinayana", well maybe they can reflect for a bit about how Mahayanists feel when ignorant Theravadins (which is not all of them) make such blunders as this! What goes around comes around. Sad, very sad. haha! I'm trying to laugh at it, because it is a kind of tragic comedy.
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Paññāsikhara »

...please delete...
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Paññāsikhara »

...please delete...
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

hi Suanck,
have a read of this part
we would like readers of this article to be wary of the editorial sensationalism and misrepresentations that have been given to this press release. It was originally intended to reply to the questions the Thai media had on Wat Nong Pah Pong’s stance in relation to the present situation with Ajahn Brahmavamso and Bodhinyana Monastery’s status, not a gender equality and power-seizing issue that it has been made into.
in other words don't believe everything you read.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

Manapa wrote:Hi Bankei,
wrong view and educational level are two different things, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Boowa, and Ajahn Mun were not very well educated, or likely to of had girlfriends, there are also many who commit adultery in many countries and from many cultures, this is breaking the precepts the vinaya dictates a certain hierarchy for monks so the amount of rains is something they need to know for that purpose, but no culture is perfect and judging a culture in comparison you another is not a wise or honest thing to do as there are plenty of faults in the western countries or any country or society for that matter, so I am unsure what you are trying to get at?
Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei
-----------------------
Bankei
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

Paññāsikhara wrote:They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).
Who translated the transcript? http://www.alittlebuddha.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
does everyone immediately know who or what the dharmagupta are?
as the Vinaya line and Mahayana are linked together easier to use an immediately understandable word when translating.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by appicchato »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Bankei,
Bankei wrote:For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.
...
So taking all of that into account it is understandable that they hold wrong views. (doesn't make it acceptable though)
While obviously some of what you portray is based on fact, I think that many of us have a rather different experience of Thailand, its people, its families, and its Sangha.

Metta
Mike
With no intention to :stirthepot:, while you (Mike) and (perhaps) many others may have 'a rather different experience...', and even though I, personally, don't really see the relevance, nor agree with entirely, overall, Bankei's depiction is not that far from being accurate...

Be well folks, it's all good...relative to what's going on in much of the rest of the world, this is pretty tame...and it will all come out in the wash...
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by appicchato »

Paññāsikhara wrote:...please delete...
Mmm...Me too, I've been writing, and then deleting, several responses to posts in this thread...fortunately before hitting the 'submit' button first... :coffee:
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

Bankei wrote:
Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei
so you use derogatory stereotypes why?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Venerable,
appicchato wrote: With no intention to :stirthepot:, while you (Mike) and (perhaps) many others may have 'a rather different experience...', and even though I, personally, don't really see the relevance, nor agree with entirely, overall, Bankei's depiction is not that far from being accurate...

Yes, thank you for your observations. This is getting way off topic, but as I was trying to imply, anyone who has had any immersion in Thailand will undoubtedly be able to find many examples of the bad side of things that Bankei talks about, along with many counter-examples. For example, my experience of Thai family groups is is rather different from Bankei's description.

But, getting back to the point of the Sangha (and lay followers for that matter)... Partly, my reaction is to quote Ajahn Brahm's often-used line: "What do you expect?" As in any other organisation, there will be good and bad, committed and uncommitted. Just like in the Suttas...

Clearly the sample of Thai monks that I've interacted with is not typical (since most of this interaction has been here), but I've got no complaints about their knowledge of Buddhism, only their standard of English, which makes it difficult for me to get full value from that knowedge...

Metta
Mike
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

Thank you for your informative posts Bankei.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Manapa wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).
Who translated the transcript? http://www.alittlebuddha.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
does everyone immediately know who or what the dharmagupta are?
as the Vinaya line and Mahayana are linked together easier to use an immediately understandable word when translating.
Well, add an explanation then. Just say: "... Dhammagutta (one of the early Vibhajjavada Theravada / Sthaviravada schools) ..." Not hard, is it?

"mahayana" is not a translation of "dhammagutta".

They are related, by association, yes. But because in most Theravada countries they basically believe that the Mahayana is heretical, evil and whatnot, the term "mahayana" is not in any way an appropriate substitute in this context.

So, by saying that "mahayana" is an understandable translation of "dhammagutta", it is totally incorrect.
Their so-called "understanding" is of something totally different. So, it makes the confusion even worse.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
bodhabill
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:38 am
Location: NSW Australia
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

by Bankei » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:15 am
For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.
Hi Bankei

Thank you for your honest summation

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

Manapa wrote:
Bankei wrote:
Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei
so you use derogatory stereotypes why?
What was derogatory?

It may be hard to imagine, for those who haven't lived in Thailand. The education level and general knowledge of the monks, especially those outside of bangkok, is very low by western standards. So don't expect too much!
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
Posts: 430
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

Or the phrase it differently, the WPP leadership is out of touch.

(as are most religious leaders)

Bankei
-----------------------
Bankei
Post Reply