Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:36 pm

Hi Bankei,
wrong view and educational level are two different things, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Boowa, and Ajahn Mun were not very well educated, or likely to of had girlfriends, there are also many who commit adultery in many countries and from many cultures, this is breaking the precepts the vinaya dictates a certain hierarchy for monks so the amount of rains is something they need to know for that purpose, but no culture is perfect and judging a culture in comparison you another is not a wise or honest thing to do as there are plenty of faults in the western countries or any country or society for that matter, so I am unsure what you are trying to get at?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodom » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:12 am

I'll leave some words from a wise man who spoke on this issue.

Ordination will always be a paltry thing in comparison to meditation. - Yuttadhammo

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:15 am

Bankei wrote:Here is a WPP response to that recent press conference,
taken from http://dhammalight.com/official/pdf/Res ... -01-10.pdf

... The issue is not that Wat Nong Pah Pong is against
women ordaining, but rather due to Wat Nong Pah Pong’s status as a member of the
Thai Sangha and its obligation to follow Thai Sangha Laws.



That statement means: at present time, no women ordaining is possible within the WPP.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:39 am

Hi Bankei,
Bankei wrote:For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.
...
So taking all of that into account it is understandable that they hold wrong views. (doesn't make it acceptable though)

While obviously some of what you portray is based on fact, I think that many of us have a rather different experience of Thailand, its people, its families, and its Sangha.

Metta
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:51 am

Bankei wrote:Here is a WPP response to that recent press conference,
taken from http://dhammalight.com/official/pdf/Res ... -01-10.pdf

A Response to the 30th December 2009 Article, “Monks Target Western Clergy”

....
The Administrative Committee of Wat Nong Pah Pong


It appears that the WPP response did not adrress the following points raised in the Bangkok Post's article:

- "... they have accused him of mismanaging temples in Australia. They complain he has changed by-laws and appointed his supporters to run temples." Did the monks at the press conference say that? Did they accuse Aj Brahm of those wrong doings?

- "They are also unhappy about alleged negative comments Ajahn Brahm has made about Thai clergy and Thai Buddhism in his talks overseas". Did the monks at the press conference say that? If so, what is the explanation?

- Did the Thai monk, Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn, say at the press conference: "... that the introduction of the Siladhara order, or 10-precept nuns, which was set up by the most senior Western monk, Ajahn Sumedho, as an alternative to female monks in Thailand was also unthinkable." ?

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:01 am

Bankei wrote: Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
Yes, it has nothing to do with Mahayana. That lineage of bhikkhuni ordination is from other Sthavira lineages.

Manapa wrote:
Ven Brahmavamso: “I am not Mahayana. But as far as I know, as you all have explained – what is the reason for saying that this is not a real ordination? If Somdet Buddhajahn who is my Upajjhaya is able to me that it is really wrong, then I will admit it. But it has to have reason. I have not heard a reason. I don’t understand. And also… (monks explain the reason and there is debate up till 145.32 mins)
Bankei wrote:Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
In order of appearance
Ven Brahmavamso: “I was not the Upajjhaya (Preceptor). There was a bhikkhu[ni] who was the Upajjhaya of the bhikkhunis; it was not me. The ritual was done at the forest monastery in Perth. It was an ordination for bhikkhunis. There was no Upajjhaya; the Pavattini was a bhikkhuni. A bhikkhuni was Pavattini (Upajjhaya). Tathaaloka has been to Thailand long ago. She has 12 Pansa (Vassas/Years since full ordination). She was ordained in the Mahayana in a sect in the United States.
They may of opted to use Mahayana instead of dharmagupta as it would save confussion as to who was being refered to i.e, the lineage of ordination of Bhikkhunis which is uncut and found only in the Mahayana teaching lineage?
Secretary of the Meeting: “Those that have gone to pay homage to Venerable Somdet Phra Buddhajahn (the Acting Sangharaja) at Wat Saket [will know]: he said that this is a Mahayana practice, not Theravadan.”
In one respect he is correct, this vinaya practice is unbroken in the Dhammagupta line which the Mahayana follow. Whether it is literarily correct is another matter but the meaning is clear.
Thera: The Most Venerable Somdet Phra Buddhajahn has said that, ‘If he wants to give ordination, then alright. Let him be Mahayana.’ Then he [Ajahn Brahmavamso] replied, ‘We are not splitting from you, but you are splitting from us into Mahayana.’ This is what he said.”
As it is a Mahayana teaching lineage that still has the Bhikkhuni ordination from the dharmagupta vinaya lineage within it, this may appear confused, although it is relatively clear what they were meaning, or at least discernable.
Thera: “OK, you will not be in the Theravada sect. Are you going to go to the Mahayana sect?”
Meaning the ordination line of the Dharmagupta. It would be interesting to see what someone experienced in vinaya has to say about the transcript, but feel that may possibly not be seen as appropriate to do by those who are experienced to explain the vinaya acts in this manner, although it would be nice to be incorrect about that feeling.
They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).

bodom wrote:
Bankei wrote:Also note their misunderstandings of history and how they use the term 'Mahayana'.
Yes, notice it sounds the way Hinayana is used within the Mahayana sect. :anjali:
haha! Exactly what I was thinking. I any Theravadins out there are sick to death of ignorant Mahayanists (which is not all of them) calling their practice "hinayana", well maybe they can reflect for a bit about how Mahayanists feel when ignorant Theravadins (which is not all of them) make such blunders as this! What goes around comes around. Sad, very sad. haha! I'm trying to laugh at it, because it is a kind of tragic comedy.
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:07 am

...please delete...
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:10 am

...please delete...
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:13 am

hi Suanck,
have a read of this part
we would like readers of this article to be wary of the editorial sensationalism and misrepresentations that have been given to this press release. It was originally intended to reply to the questions the Thai media had on Wat Nong Pah Pong’s stance in relation to the present situation with Ajahn Brahmavamso and Bodhinyana Monastery’s status, not a gender equality and power-seizing issue that it has been made into.


in other words don't believe everything you read.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:21 am

Manapa wrote:Hi Bankei,
wrong view and educational level are two different things, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Boowa, and Ajahn Mun were not very well educated, or likely to of had girlfriends, there are also many who commit adultery in many countries and from many cultures, this is breaking the precepts the vinaya dictates a certain hierarchy for monks so the amount of rains is something they need to know for that purpose, but no culture is perfect and judging a culture in comparison you another is not a wise or honest thing to do as there are plenty of faults in the western countries or any country or society for that matter, so I am unsure what you are trying to get at?


Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:23 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).


Who translated the transcript? http://www.alittlebuddha.com/
does everyone immediately know who or what the dharmagupta are?
as the Vinaya line and Mahayana are linked together easier to use an immediately understandable word when translating.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby appicchato » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:25 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Bankei,
Bankei wrote:For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.
...
So taking all of that into account it is understandable that they hold wrong views. (doesn't make it acceptable though)

While obviously some of what you portray is based on fact, I think that many of us have a rather different experience of Thailand, its people, its families, and its Sangha.

Metta
Mike


With no intention to :stirthepot:, while you (Mike) and (perhaps) many others may have 'a rather different experience...', and even though I, personally, don't really see the relevance, nor agree with entirely, overall, Bankei's depiction is not that far from being accurate...

Be well folks, it's all good...relative to what's going on in much of the rest of the world, this is pretty tame...and it will all come out in the wash...
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby appicchato » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:29 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:...please delete...


Mmm...Me too, I've been writing, and then deleting, several responses to posts in this thread...fortunately before hitting the 'submit' button first... :coffee:
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:37 am

Bankei wrote:
Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei

so you use derogatory stereotypes why?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:12 am

Hi Venerable,
appicchato wrote:[i]With no intention to :stirthepot:, while you (Mike) and (perhaps) many others may have 'a rather different experience...', and even though I, personally, don't really see the relevance, nor agree with entirely, overall, Bankei's depiction is not that far from being accurate...

Yes, thank you for your observations. This is getting way off topic, but as I was trying to imply, anyone who has had any immersion in Thailand will undoubtedly be able to find many examples of the bad side of things that Bankei talks about, along with many counter-examples. For example, my experience of Thai family groups is is rather different from Bankei's description.

But, getting back to the point of the Sangha (and lay followers for that matter)... Partly, my reaction is to quote Ajahn Brahm's often-used line: "What do you expect?" As in any other organisation, there will be good and bad, committed and uncommitted. Just like in the Suttas...

Clearly the sample of Thai monks that I've interacted with is not typical (since most of this interaction has been here), but I've got no complaints about their knowledge of Buddhism, only their standard of English, which makes it difficult for me to get full value from that knowedge...

Metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:36 am

Thank you for your informative posts Bankei.

metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:02 am

Manapa wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:They should have dropped all uses of "mahayana", by both Ajahn Brahms and other Theras. This is nothing to do with "mahayana ordination" or lineages. None of those bhikkhunis received any "mahayana ordination" at that time at all. It just makes things even more confused for people who haven't done their homework (and it is pretty simple homework at that).


Who translated the transcript? http://www.alittlebuddha.com/
does everyone immediately know who or what the dharmagupta are?
as the Vinaya line and Mahayana are linked together easier to use an immediately understandable word when translating.


Well, add an explanation then. Just say: "... Dhammagutta (one of the early Vibhajjavada Theravada / Sthaviravada schools) ..." Not hard, is it?

"mahayana" is not a translation of "dhammagutta".

They are related, by association, yes. But because in most Theravada countries they basically believe that the Mahayana is heretical, evil and whatnot, the term "mahayana" is not in any way an appropriate substitute in this context.

So, by saying that "mahayana" is an understandable translation of "dhammagutta", it is totally incorrect.
Their so-called "understanding" is of something totally different. So, it makes the confusion even worse.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:14 am

by Bankei » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:15 am
For those that have never been to Thailand I think I should also point out how different Thai society is to the West.


Hi Bankei

Thank you for your honest summation

With Metta
Bill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:39 am

Manapa wrote:
Bankei wrote:
Hi Manapa

I was just trying to point out that these monks live in a different world to the average Westerner and therefore have different views on women and Buddhism to most people so it may be a bit much to expect them to be over enthusiastic about women ordaining.

An yes, Mike, what I wrote was stereotypical and there are many exceptions out there. There are many educated and knowledgeable Thais out there (just not probably monks of the WPP group!).

Bankei

so you use derogatory stereotypes why?


What was derogatory?

It may be hard to imagine, for those who haven't lived in Thailand. The education level and general knowledge of the monks, especially those outside of bangkok, is very low by western standards. So don't expect too much!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:11 am

Or the phrase it differently, the WPP leadership is out of touch.

(as are most religious leaders)

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