Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Moggalana » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:20 pm

Thanks for the link, Rhino :) I think, I'll wait. There are still too many books in my bookshelf I haven't had the time to read yet...
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:37 pm

Hi Manapa
Manapa wrote:hi Ben,
It would supprise me if he was a teacher of Goenka, although it wouldn't supprise me if he had in the past! or used goenkas style as a template of sorts to teach his style. I do hope someone finds a pdf of his 'lesson plan' it would be interesting to compare with my own practice (not like I don't need to push further :juggling: )

Yes, after reading a couple of chapters I began to doubt what Colin told me about Venerable being appointed an AT.

Thanks Adeh for your comments. I'm not even half-way through Satipatthana yet though I can tell its going to be one book that I will continue to come back to for many years to come. If you scroll up through this discussion you'll find links in a post by Manapa which will lead to a list of Venerable's online publications. Give it a shot!
metta

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby adept » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:48 am

Well, after reading this discussion and the high recommendation that this book gets, I've ordered it today.
Thanks everyone.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Prasadachitta » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:14 pm

Hi Ben,

I found this book immensely helpful to my practice and I will continue to refer to it for years to come. It leaves good questions to explore in practice and it clarifies at the same time. I found that Analyos definition of Satipattana as attending with mindfulness rather than making your experience an "Object of mindfulness" a subtly helpful distinction.


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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Prasadachitta » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:37 pm

Manapa wrote:hi ben
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... f/analayo/

here is a file from the university of hamberg which has some of Bhantes works of varying sizes and much is very interesting, although some are copies from encyclopedia entries by bhante there are other papers there!
and you might be able to contact bhante through one of the links on his profile found here http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... .html?&L=1
there are other papers from other authors found in predominantly German, but some English also.



Thanks for that I have now waded through a number of excellent essays and will continue on.


Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby phil » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:46 am

I remember hearing Bhikkhu Bodhi rave (well, as close as he would go to raving) about this book at the beginning of his talk on MN10 and wanted to read it. Thanks for the reminder.

Metta,

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby IanAnd » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:26 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:[This book] leaves good questions to explore in practice and it clarifies at the same time. I found that Analyos definition of Satipattana as attending with mindfulness rather than making your experience an "Object of mindfulness" a subtly helpful distinction. (emphasis added)

Yes. You are quite right. The amount of subtle differences that Analayo points out in the book is extremely gratifying and illuminating to practitioners who know and understand what he is talking about. Yet, it does take some experience with the subtleties of practice to fully appreciate the insight provided by the book.

But sometimes, even Analayo doesn't go far enough. This is not said to fault him, but to point out that when something like this is written down and published when the practitioner is still himself developing the practice, that often it can be a sign of where the writer himself is at within the parameters of his own practice. I have experienced this phenomenon myself on occasion, often wishing I could take back some of the things I expressed. Sometimes, established doctrinal points can get in the way of really understanding the full scope of what is possible using the mental practices of meditation and contemplation in one's practice of arriving at an awakening experience of the Dhamma. One example of this can be seen on page 78 of the English version of the book:

Analayo wrote:These passages support an understanding of the first absorption as a deeply absorbed state of mind, beyond mere reflection and conceptual thought. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that, as absorption-factors, initial mental application (vitakka) and sustained mental application (vicara) do not imply full-fledged thinking activity. Rather, they refer to the initial and sustained application of attention. Such application of attention can also take place in the domain of thought or verbal communication, when initial mental application directs the mind toward what is to be thought or said, while sustained mental application maintains the coherence of a particular sequence of thoughts or words. In the context of absorption, however, this same activity is nothing more than an intentional deployment of attention, directed towards the object of concentration....

This way of understanding can also be applied to the passages mentioned above, which at first sight seemed to suggest that conceptual thought continues in the first stage of absorption, since they spoke of the "cessation of wholesome intentions" on attaining the second absorption, a state of "noble silence". Although initial mental application as a factor of the first absorption is different from discursive thought, initial mental application is nonetheless in this context a kind of "intention" and thereby involves a very subtle degree of deliberate mental activity. Only on entering the second absorption, when this last vestige of mental activity is abandoned and concentration has become fully stable, does the mind reach a state of complete inner stillness ("noble silence"), leaving behind even these subtle "wholesome intentions".


While this explanation is correct within the context that Analayo is outlining for someone in the beginning stages of absorption practice, wherein the inexperienced practitioner is still learning about how properly to enter the absorption state, it can leave a misguided impression in the mind that all such attempts at entering absorption must be accomplished in this same manner. For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice. But this is an advanced concept for most beginning practitioners in absorption, and is best covered after the practitioner has gained some proficiency in his practice of being able to enter, "at will," absorption.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:37 am

Hi ian
For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice. But this is an advanced concept for most beginning practitioners in absorption, and is best covered after the practitioner has gained some proficiency in his practice of being able to enter, "at will," absorption.

I had the distinct impression that Venerable was alluding to this further on, from "the contribution of absorption to the progress of insight" and following (p. 85 to the end of the chapter). For those who do not have a copy, Bhante's position is best summed up by his observation on p. 88:
The central point that emerges when considering the relationship between calm and insight is the need for balance. Since a concentrated mind supports the development of insight, and the presence of wisdom in turn facilitates the development of deeper levels of concentration, calm (samatha)
and insight (vipassana) are at best when developed in skilfull cooperation.

kind regards

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby IanAnd » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:41 am

Ben wrote:Hi ian
For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice...


I had the distinct impression that Venerable was alluding to this further on, from "the contribution of absorption to the progress of insight" and following (p. 85 to the end of the chapter). For those who do not have a copy, Bhante's position is best summed up by his observation on p. 88:
The central point that emerges when considering the relationship between calm and insight is the need for balance. Since a concentrated mind supports the development of insight, and the presence of wisdom in turn facilitates the development of deeper levels of concentration, calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana) are at best when developed in skilfull cooperation.

kind regards

Ben

Hi Ben,

Congratulations, Ben. That's quite correct, if you are able to pick up on that later comment and extrapolate back to the earlier comment and come up with that insight, then you're doing well indeed. :twothumbsup: It's nice to hear it now and again coming from a monastic practitioner.

I was only attempting to provide a more substantive post to the one which Tilt had provided to "bump" the thread. Apparently that "bump" post he added has been removed! Tally ho...onward and upward. The rewards of reading and contemplating Analayo's book are seemingly endless.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:46 am

No problems Ian
Your contributions are of great interest to me. Thank you for participating in this discussion.
metta

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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby mettafuture » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:02 pm

bodom wrote:This is the most in depth commentary on this sutta available in the english language. This might be the best most in depth commentary on any sutta for that matter. I have read this book a half dozen times and find new insights every time i pick it up.

I completely agree.

To those considering this book, I highly recommend you read it with patience. It's a very detailed commentary, and if you try to rush through it, you might not be able to focus on everything that's being said, or you might lose interest, etc.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Postby kitztack » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:49 am

mettafuture wrote:
bodom wrote:This is the most in depth commentary on this sutta available in the english language. This might be the best most in depth commentary on any sutta for that matter. I have read this book a half dozen times and find new insights every time i pick it up.

I completely agree.

To those considering this book, I highly recommend you read it with patience. It's a very detailed commentary, and if you try to rush through it, you might not be able to focus on everything that's being said, or you might lose interest, etc.



i just heard downloaded the book at this link
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ctPath.pdf

though it contains so much detail, it is written in the clearest style i have come across.whereas some commentaries on the Satipathanna Sutta bewilder and confuse me this allows me to reflect upon points as i read. think i'll order it from Amazon
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