Hi all
- Is the Vinaya pitaka we have in the present Pali Canon the same Vinaya laid down by the historical Buddha?
- What are the key differences between the Theravadin Vinaya, the Dharmagupta Vinaya and the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya?
- Does the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, or the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya espouse to be the historical word of the Buddha, with the same tenacity as the Theravadin Vinaya?
I am somewhat aware of the Theravadin 'party line' (not as in phone chat LOL) and I'd like to be clear that I am more interested in a non-sectarian POV. Edit: Perhaps the party line needs to be reiterated anyway.
metta
Jack
Vinaya Pitaka
Vinaya Pitaka
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
In my opinion, based on readings from it and from the reports of some scholars:
Sutta Vibhanga & Patimokkha are Buddhavacana
Khandhaka & Cullavagga, slightly more recent, perhaps not recited at the First Council
Parivara = much later text, about the same timing of the Abhidhamma
The "bread and butter" most important part is the Patikmokkha and that appears to be authentic & Buddhavacana.
Sutta Vibhanga & Patimokkha are Buddhavacana
Khandhaka & Cullavagga, slightly more recent, perhaps not recited at the First Council
Parivara = much later text, about the same timing of the Abhidhamma
The "bread and butter" most important part is the Patikmokkha and that appears to be authentic & Buddhavacana.
Re: Vinaya Pitaka
They are almost identical, except in the Sekhiya group (group of training rules): The Theravada Vinaya has 75 rules, while the Dharmagupta has 100 rules and the Mulasarvastivadin has 99 rules. The differences are very minor.BlackBird wrote:
- What are the key differences between the Theravadin Vinaya, the Dharmagupta Vinaya and the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya?
Suan.
Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Additional notes:
We now have the Vinaya Pitaka of 6 main Buddhist schools. They are very similar, except the minor rules in the Sekhiya group.
1) Theravada: in Pali and English translation by PTS.
2) Mulasarvastivada in Tibetan (Dul-ba), and also in Chinese (Taisho 1442).
3) Dharmaguptaka in Chinese (T 1428).
4) Sarvastivada in Chinese (T 1435).
5) Mahisasaka in Chinese (T 1421).
6) Mahasanghika in Chinese (T 1425).
I'm not sure if 2-6 are available in English. However, I believe that as part of recent movement of bhikkhuni ordination, the bhikkhuni vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka & Mulasarvastivada have been studied and translated into English.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya_Pitaka
Suan.
We now have the Vinaya Pitaka of 6 main Buddhist schools. They are very similar, except the minor rules in the Sekhiya group.
1) Theravada: in Pali and English translation by PTS.
2) Mulasarvastivada in Tibetan (Dul-ba), and also in Chinese (Taisho 1442).
3) Dharmaguptaka in Chinese (T 1428).
4) Sarvastivada in Chinese (T 1435).
5) Mahisasaka in Chinese (T 1421).
6) Mahasanghika in Chinese (T 1425).
I'm not sure if 2-6 are available in English. However, I believe that as part of recent movement of bhikkhuni ordination, the bhikkhuni vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka & Mulasarvastivada have been studied and translated into English.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya_Pitaka
Suan.
Last edited by suanck on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Warning: Don't be fooled by that little "mula" in the "Mulasarvastivada". It is almost definitely later than the "Sarvastivada", and one of the latest Vinaya texts around.
In the Chinese, in addition to the Vinayas listed above, there are also a host of other related Vinaya material from India, too. This includes the a Chinese translation of the Samantapasadika commentary from Sri Lanka! There are a couple of English versions of this around.
Nattier, Janice J., and Prebish, Charles S., “Mahāsāṃghika Origins: The Beginnings of Buddhist Sectarianism” History of Religions 16/3, 1977, has some interesting stuff on the Mahasamghikas and their Vinaya in relation to the first schism in the community.
In the Chinese, in addition to the Vinayas listed above, there are also a host of other related Vinaya material from India, too. This includes the a Chinese translation of the Samantapasadika commentary from Sri Lanka! There are a couple of English versions of this around.
Nattier, Janice J., and Prebish, Charles S., “Mahāsāṃghika Origins: The Beginnings of Buddhist Sectarianism” History of Religions 16/3, 1977, has some interesting stuff on the Mahasamghikas and their Vinaya in relation to the first schism in the community.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Most professors of Buddhism wouldn't even touch a question like that! haha!BlackBird wrote:Hi all
- Is the Vinaya pitaka we have in the present Pali Canon the same Vinaya laid down by the historical Buddha?
But, in short, no. But this has to do more with the actual contents of the Vinaya, than it not being the Buddha's teaching.
Whew! You have to really look at them all, not just these (eclectic) three.- What are the key differences between the Theravadin Vinaya, the Dharmagupta Vinaya and the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya?
Of course, they all do.- Does the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, or the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya espouse to be the historical word of the Buddha, with the same tenacity as the Theravadin Vinaya?
A "non-sectarian POV"? They are all kind of sectarian. The big trouble is, how to go from a whole lot of sectarian to a non-sectarian, that is the trick!I am somewhat aware of the Theravadin 'party line' (not as in phone chat LOL) and I'd like to be clear that I am more interested in a non-sectarian POV. Edit: Perhaps the party line needs to be reiterated anyway.
metta
Jack
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Paññāsikhara wrote:Most professors of Buddhism wouldn't even touch a question like that! haha!BlackBird wrote:Hi all
- Is the Vinaya pitaka we have in the present Pali Canon the same Vinaya laid down by the historical Buddha?
But, in short, no. But this has to do more with the actual contents of the Vinaya, than it not being the Buddha's teaching.
Whew! You have to really look at them all, not just these (eclectic) three.- What are the key differences between the Theravadin Vinaya, the Dharmagupta Vinaya and the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya?
Of course, they all do.- Does the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, or the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya espouse to be the historical word of the Buddha, with the same tenacity as the Theravadin Vinaya?
A "non-sectarian POV"? They are all kind of sectarian. The big trouble is, how to go from a whole lot of sectarian to a non-sectarian, that is the trick!I am somewhat aware of the Theravadin 'party line' (not as in phone chat LOL) and I'd like to be clear that I am more interested in a non-sectarian POV. Edit: Perhaps the party line needs to be reiterated anyway.
metta
Jack
Hello Venerable,
Are you saying that the Theravada Vinaya has not been kept in the pristine form it was handed down from the Buddha? That it has been altered from when it was sung by the Arahants at the Councils?
What has been altered or distorted - and for what reason? How was it that this occurred?
metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
I'll refer you to the article mentioned above.
A very brief look that compares the basic contents of the various Vinayas shows that they differ. The number of precepts, etc. are not the same.
Although earlier studies which focused almost exclusively on the Pali tended to suggest that the Pali Vinaya was perfectly unaltered and it was the others that had been "tampered" with (and other loaded words), there is also very good evidence to suggest that many schools had added a few more precepts to their Vinayas. Mostly fairly minor stuff, actually. The major precepts are largely left unchanged in all the schools.
Alteration does not imply distortion. There is plenty of evidence that most of the early Buddhist material has developed somewhat over a period of time, but this does not necessarily mean that it is distorted, ie. erroneous, false, incorrect, etc.
Often people think that being different, or altered, is always through some sort of nefarious "tampering" and "meddling" and other such ideas which are largely derogatory. However, given the nature of development of oral literature, and even early forms of written literature, this may be be the case. Small changes may occur for other reasons. And these reasons may be fully in the same intent and spirit as the original.
I am not sure which council you are referring to? The first, second, third ... seventh?
A very brief look that compares the basic contents of the various Vinayas shows that they differ. The number of precepts, etc. are not the same.
Although earlier studies which focused almost exclusively on the Pali tended to suggest that the Pali Vinaya was perfectly unaltered and it was the others that had been "tampered" with (and other loaded words), there is also very good evidence to suggest that many schools had added a few more precepts to their Vinayas. Mostly fairly minor stuff, actually. The major precepts are largely left unchanged in all the schools.
Alteration does not imply distortion. There is plenty of evidence that most of the early Buddhist material has developed somewhat over a period of time, but this does not necessarily mean that it is distorted, ie. erroneous, false, incorrect, etc.
Often people think that being different, or altered, is always through some sort of nefarious "tampering" and "meddling" and other such ideas which are largely derogatory. However, given the nature of development of oral literature, and even early forms of written literature, this may be be the case. Small changes may occur for other reasons. And these reasons may be fully in the same intent and spirit as the original.
I am not sure which council you are referring to? The first, second, third ... seventh?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Thank you Bhante.
What is growing on me is the idea that Buddhavacana does not have to be the word of the historical Buddha (as we discussed in a previous thread).
I'm okay with that. Actually it's a bit of a relief.
metta
Jack
What is growing on me is the idea that Buddhavacana does not have to be the word of the historical Buddha (as we discussed in a previous thread).
I'm okay with that. Actually it's a bit of a relief.
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
BlackBird wrote:Thank you Bhante.
What is growing on me is the idea that Buddhavacana does not have to be the word of the historical Buddha (as we discussed in a previous thread).
I'm okay with that. Actually it's a bit of a relief.
metta
Jack
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
hi Jack, Paññāsikhara & All
but jack contact Ashin! our teacher, Ashin Nyanissara, has talked about certain differences such as the rules regarding vegetarianism and why they developed in a video I watched a while ago, plus he is the head/patron(?) of the International Buddhist Missionary university in Burma, so may have some more specific info.
There is a book about the Bhikkhuni rules of the six schools, but don't know a direct link & it is only mentioned not linked to on A2I
personally I think anyone can say something which could be considered Buddhavacana, but it shouldn't necessarily be considered as such, even if they are enlightened. only if it rouses samvega and conforms to what the Buddha Taught (Dhp 183/samsipa sutta) should it be considered as such on a personal level, and I tend to agree with retro on the general side, i.e., the Buddha gave his stamp of approval.
Without looking for the quote, the Buddha did allow for minor rules to be discarded or altered, but didn't mention what they are,in the Parinibbana sutta, if I remember correctly?Paññāsikhara wrote: Although earlier studies which focused almost exclusively on the Pali tended to suggest that the Pali Vinaya was perfectly unaltered and it was the others that had been "tampered" with (and other loaded words), there is also very good evidence to suggest that many schools had added a few more precepts to their Vinayas. Mostly fairly minor stuff, actually. The major precepts are largely left unchanged in all the schools.
but jack contact Ashin! our teacher, Ashin Nyanissara, has talked about certain differences such as the rules regarding vegetarianism and why they developed in a video I watched a while ago, plus he is the head/patron(?) of the International Buddhist Missionary university in Burma, so may have some more specific info.
There is a book about the Bhikkhuni rules of the six schools, but don't know a direct link & it is only mentioned not linked to on A2I
I wonder if you were thinking of the Abhiddhama Authenticity debate (pinned thread)? myself and retro were talking about this there.BlackBird wrote:What is growing on me is the idea that Buddhavacana does not have to be the word of the historical Buddha (as we discussed in a previous thread)
personally I think anyone can say something which could be considered Buddhavacana, but it shouldn't necessarily be considered as such, even if they are enlightened. only if it rouses samvega and conforms to what the Buddha Taught (Dhp 183/samsipa sutta) should it be considered as such on a personal level, and I tend to agree with retro on the general side, i.e., the Buddha gave his stamp of approval.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Somewhat unrelated, but I recall a passage where a bhikkhu tells the Buddha that he can't remember the Vinaya, and the Buddha tells him to train in "heightened virtue, heightened mind and heightened discernment" in that case.
If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from? I'll try to find it later today otherwise..
If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from? I'll try to find it later today otherwise..
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Greetings Chula,
Patimokkha rules were added as cause to arose them add.
It's entirely plausible that at the time the bhikkhu spoke to the Buddha the count was up to 150... and that there was still time prior to the Buddha's final nibbana for more to be added as a result of later indiscretions by members of the Sangha.
Metta,
Retro.
Patimokkha rules were added as cause to arose them add.
It's entirely plausible that at the time the bhikkhu spoke to the Buddha the count was up to 150... and that there was still time prior to the Buddha's final nibbana for more to be added as a result of later indiscretions by members of the Sangha.
Metta,
Retro.
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Hej Chula,Chula wrote:If I haven't remembered wrong the bhikkhu was complaining that the Patimokkha now had 150 rules.. Interesting since now it contains 227..
Does anyone know where this passage is from?
it's from AN 3:83.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the 150-rules-passage:
"This is said with reference to the Patimokha, the code of monastic rules, which in its Pali version actually contains 227 rules. Perhaps at this time the Patimokha had not yet reached its final shape."
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Re: Vinaya Pitaka
Thanks puthujjana for the reference.
And yes retro I agree that it's entirely plausible that the remaining rules were set later by the Buddha himself. I was just curious because this is the only explicit reference to the number of Vinaya rules in the Sutta Pitaka to my knowledge..
And yes retro I agree that it's entirely plausible that the remaining rules were set later by the Buddha himself. I was just curious because this is the only explicit reference to the number of Vinaya rules in the Sutta Pitaka to my knowledge..