Bhikkhuni ordination

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

Hi Robert

Do you believe the Bhikkhu lineage is valid? If so which Nikaya?
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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by robertk »

Bankei wrote:Hi Robert

Do you believe the Bhikkhu lineage is valid? If so which Nikaya?
I presume this question come out of the argument used by the Bhikkhuni people: to wit that if we can't prove beyond certainty that the Bhikkhu orination is vaild then why worry about a thousand year gap in the Bhikkhuni order, just give a little wink and away we start it up again.

The reply is this: if any of the nikayas now extant in Theravada have a broken lineage then the Bhikkhus in them are not in fact bhikkhu as the ordination was invalid. However, there has been no proof of this at all. To take the case of the Dhammayut and mahanikaya in Thailand. the Dhammayut was not a new order- it came about because one monk decided to reordain under burmese mon monks. And while he may have had some doubts about the purity of the mahanikaya monks he never proved or even stated that the Mahanikaya were a broken lineage.


As it stands the fact of the Bhikkhuni being extinct in Theravada is beyond any doubt , but then to try to shame the bhikkhu by asserting that they are or might be equally extinct is a rather dangerous thing, kammically, to be saying.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

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Hi Robertk
don't remember seeing you for a good while, either I have been blind, my memory is failing me, or Hi (again),

My sympathies, therefore, lie with reformist monks like Phra Prayut Payutto and not with [snip] the bhikkhunī revivalists. Over the past two decades the reformists' quiet and patient efforts to open up the monastic schools to mae chiis and promote state-funding for them have benefited thousands. By contrast, the Thai bhikkhunī revivalists have done very little at all
I am not 100% sure if this is you or you quoting another?
but if it is you, or not, what do you thing of the founding of a new order? which is by any comparison of dhammavinaya theravadin, but not a direct line from the original. I think the Siladhara order does fit in with this to some degree.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by robertk »

Manapa wrote:Hi Robertk
don't remember seeing you for a good while, either I have been blind, my memory is failing me, or Hi (again),

My sympathies, therefore, lie with reformist monks like Phra Prayut Payutto and not with [snip] the bhikkhunī revivalists. Over the past two decades the reformists' quiet and patient efforts to open up the monastic schools to mae chiis and promote state-funding for them have benefited thousands. By contrast, the Thai bhikkhunī revivalists have done very little at all
I am not 100% sure if this is you or you quoting another?
but if it is you, or not, what do you thing of the founding of a new order? which is by any comparison of dhammavinaya theravadin, but not a direct line from the original. I think the Siladhara order does fit in with this to some degree.
thanks manapa, It has been awhile, I was hoping to post all this on esangha but they are so slow to put it back up.
That citation was from ven Dhammanando I copied it from esangha.

I met venerable Sumedho over 20 years ago and said I thought the siladhara was a good idea of his. He said even then the Thai people didn't like it but he went ahead. In hindsight it seems - despite his extremely good intentions, and all the work he and his brother monks have put in worldwide with the siladhari- that it has been problematic. You see they are ,as with meechi, still upasika no different ,except in taking a stricter code of sila , than any other buddhist laywoman.

I have no problem with there being tibetan bhikkhuni , dharmagupta bhikkhuni, or western order bhikkuni or if someone wants to start a new order that is fine: but don't then try to fit them by sleight of hand into the Theravada as Theravada bhikkuni.
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Robert,
I don't mean restart the bhikkhuni order with a wink and a blind eye, which I think you may of thought I meant, but rather roses are red & violets are blue, similar plants in some respects but different in others.

a new order rather than a restarted dead one. its own distinct history but the same rules, maybe (slightly) different clarification on procedures, as Thanissaro points out in the letter on Dhammalight, some of the procedures aren't necessarily valid from a legalistic point of view, but they are essentially both the same thing, a higher ordination for women within Theravada, which conforms to the Dhammavinaya.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

robertk wrote: The reply is this: if any of the nikayas now extant in Theravada have a broken lineage then the Bhikkhus in them are not in fact bhikkhu as the ordination was invalid. However, there has been no proof of this at all. To take the case of the Dhammayut and mahanikaya in Thailand. the Dhammayut was not a new order- it came about because one monk decided to reordain under burmese mon monks. And while he may have had some doubts about the purity of the mahanikaya monks he never proved or even stated that the Mahanikaya were a broken lineage.
Robert,

If one man was ordained as a Bhikkhu by a preceptor who had knowingly kept secret a parajika offence (and therefore wasn't a monk at the time of the ordination ceremony) would you still count him as a Bhikkhu?

What about if monks were being ordained in a siimaa that was invalid? Would their ordinations be valid?

Or if the person ordaining had an unusual way of pronouncing the Pali during the ceremony and often got it 'wrong', would their ordination be valid?
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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

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Dear Bankei
Perhaps one of the bhikkhus on this forum could clarify as I am not sure of all the details.
usually ordinations are done with far more monks than the minimum quroum (of 5) partly because of potential problems like the one you mention where one of the monks might be parijika or otherwise not a real bhikkhu. As I understand it provided at least 5 of the monks are properly ordained then even if the other 7 or 8 were fake monk/parijaka/improperly ordained then the ordination is still vaild. There are apparently dukkaka and pacittiyas for being part of such a ceremony but the ordination I believe still holds.
With regard to pronuciation- If it was so bad that no one could understand what he was saying then that would be grounds to invaildate that ordination I think.

The lenghts that the theravda goes to to make sure that these seemingly minor points - even sima boundaries - are kept shows how much the good bhikkhu respect the Vinaya and why they are absolutely opposed to any changes in it.
In the earlier post that was deleted you said you couldn't understand how a westerner could hold the views i express on this matter.? The reason is, like those good monks, I believe the theravada Vinya and Commentary was handed down from the Buddha and has been kept pristine., thus to alter it even in the slightest way is unthinkable to me. However to change the procedures for ordination- as these reformist are attempting is far from being minor, it is an attempt to overturn the vinaya and the Grave rules from the ground up.
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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by robertk »

Manapa wrote:Hi Robert,
a higher ordination for women within Theravada, which conforms to the Dhammavinaya.
The thing is there are only 4 clasess of Buddhist: Bhikkhu, bhikkuni,upasaka and upasika so however you cut it or call it any women in Theravada are upasika at this time. Some upasika may take on very strict sila- that is their option.
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

robertk wrote:Dear Bankei
Perhaps one of the bhikkhus on this forum could clarify as I am not sure of all the details.
usually ordinations are done with far more monks than the minimum quroum (of 5) partly because of potential problems like the one you mention where one of the monks might be parijika or otherwise not a real bhikkhu. As I understand it provided at least 5 of the monks are properly ordained then even if the other 7 or 8 were fake monk/parijaka/improperly ordained then the ordination is still vaild. There are apparently dukkaka and pacittiyas for being part of such a ceremony but the ordination I believe still holds.
With regard to pronuciation- If it was so bad that no one could understand what he was saying then that would be grounds to invaildate that ordination I think.

The lenghts that the theravda goes to to make sure that these seemingly minor points - even sima boundaries - are kept shows how much the good bhikkhu respect the Vinaya and why they are absolutely opposed to any changes in it.
In the earlier post that was deleted you said you couldn't understand how a westerner could hold the views i express on this matter.? The reason is, like those good monks, I believe the theravada Vinya and Commentary was handed down from the Buddha and has been kept pristine., thus to alter it even in the slightest way is unthinkable to me. However to change the procedures for ordination- as these reformist are attempting is far from being minor, it is an attempt to overturn the vinaya and the Grave rules from the ground up.
Hi Robert

King Mongkut, while a monk, dug up the siima boundary stones of several siima within Thai monasteries. He found that they were placed incorrectly in all cases. For this and other reasons he questioned the validity of the existing sangha of Thailand (The Mahanikaya) and chose to reordain under the Mon tradition. Currently there are many Dhammayut monks who also question the validity of Mahanikaya monks.

In Sri Lanka there were and are disputes about the validity of many nikaya there. One group, I think the Malgatta chapter of the Siyam Nikaya has had their validity challenged because of the intrusion of a wooden plank into the space of their siima which has been made of a small island. This plank connects it to the main land and intrudes on the water boundary.

I've also heard a story that in ancient Sri Lanka in the Mahavihara there was a cellar under the ground where an ordination was being performed. 2 evil monks from the Abhayagiri vihara were hiding in the cellar. These monks were technically inside the sima and did not consent to the ordination - it was therefore invalid.

It is good to keep things strict and in line with the letter of the law, but don't you think it can go too far. But this may fall outside the scope of this forum, so maybe we should continue in a new thread in the modern forum - if you are interested in debating??
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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by cooran »

Hello Bankei, all,

Worth considering:

DUTTHATTHAKA SUTTA - Corruption Sutta Nipata Chapter of Eights 3
Translated by H. Saddhatissa Curzon Press 2003

1. Some people speak with malicious intentions and others with the conviction that they are right. But the sage does not enter into any controversy that has arisen. Therefore, the sage is free from all mental obstruction.

2. The person who is led by his impelling desire and continues according to his inclination, finds it difficult to give up those views he adheres to. Coming to conclusions of his own, he speaks in accordance with his knowledge.

3. If a person, without being asked, praises his own virtues and practices to others, or talks of himself, the good say he is ignoble.

4. The calm, disciplined one who abstains from praising himself for his virtues, declaring, 'So I am', the good call him a noble. In him there is no arrogance concerning the world.

5. He whose views are mentally constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed but not pure; views in which he sees personal advantage, will experience a calm which is unstable.

6. It is hard to go beyond preconceived ideas reached by passing judgment regarding doctrines. Therefore, with regard to these views he rejects one and grasps another.

7. For the person with spiritual excellence,nowhere in the world does he have any mentally-constructed view about various spheres of becoming. As he has eradicated delusion and deceit, in what manner can he be reckoned? He cannot be reckoned in any manner whatsoever.

8. He who is attached enters into debate about doctrines. By what and how can an unattached person be characterized? He has nothing to grasp or reject; he has purified all views here itself.

metta
Chris
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Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

Yes, very good Chris. Well worth remembering.
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Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

robertk wrote:Dear Bankei

With regard to pronuciation- If it was so bad that no one could understand what he was saying then that would be grounds to invaildate that ordination I think.

Here is something interesting I just found regarding pronunciation, from Prof. Nidhi Eausivong
I am reminded of one particular case which happened in the reign of King Rama I. When the bhikkhus and samaneras from Laos came to further their study in Bangkok, they were not accepted as at the time of their ordination they did not pronounce Pali properly, in accordance with the Thai pronunciation. So the Thai bhikkhus insisted that the Lao monks must go through ordination again. Responding to this, the King said that there was no need for such ordination, as ordination arises from the intention. If the Laotian monks had a good intention there is no obstacle, and they are no less bhikkhus.

Taken from http://sujato.wordpress.com/2010/01/08/the-thai-sangha/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by appicchato »

Truly bizarre (to me) that the way a word (or words) are audibly pronounced would validate (or invalidate) an ordination...but then again (I find) most everything somewhat bizarre these days...

:focus:
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by Bankei »

Yes Bhante, I agree.

I suppose the argument is if you mispronounce then it is not Pali. When I ordained, briefly, they Thais insisted I follow the Thai pronunciation. eg. Thamma for Dhamma as it had to be done 'correctly'.

I also recall reading that prince Mongkut, or one of his students, reordained once because he wanted to follow the Burmese Pali pronunciation, this being more correct than the local Thai pronunciation of that time.

I am not sure what all the differences are between the Western, Sri Lankan, Thai and Burmese styles of Pali but apparently they differ.

Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination

Post by mikenz66 »

Bankei wrote: King Mongkut, while a monk, dug up the siima boundary stones of several siima within Thai monasteries. He found that they were placed incorrectly in all cases. For this and other reasons he questioned the validity of the existing sangha of Thailand (The Mahanikaya) and chose to reordain under the Mon tradition. Currently there are many Dhammayut monks who also question the validity of Mahanikaya monks.
This is an interesting point. Can anyone link to or summarise some relevant passages in the Vinaya regarding the arragement of the sima?

Metta
Mike
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