noticing thoughts after or during the thinking....

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tiltbillings
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Re: noticing thoughts after or during the thinking....

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote: However my difficulty has been seeing impermanence in this method. I can watch Change better rather than actual arising and passing away (which seems to work as well) -
When you are "watching change," what are you watching?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: noticing thoughts after or during the thinking....

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi tiltblings

I am watching the changing of emotions/traces of thought/'impressions', much like (in terms of speed) watching clouds change shape. Usually emotions have thoughts linked to them. I have found categorising/naming them especially under craving, aversion and delusions particularly helpful- because it forces the practitioner to recognise them for what they truly are. They may have been around for such a long time that they feel like second nature but they are nevertheless defilements. Naming them also seems to help to process them somehow- i think this has something to do with adult mature (hopefully) wise mind coming into contact with a mental creation of a childs mind.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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tiltbillings
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Re: noticing thoughts after or during the thinking....

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi tiltblings

I am watching the changing of emotions/traces of thought/'impressions', much like (in terms of speed) watching clouds change shape. Usually emotions have thoughts linked to them.
Okay.
i have come to feel that the Buddha didnt want us to be observing superficial thoughts ('papanca') rather the mental 'ground' underneath those thoughts (ie where it grows out from) when the thoughts have gone quiet.
The interesting thing, if one is simply mindfully attending to whatever it is that comes into awareness, it really does not matter what it is: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized' [Ud 1 10].
there is some evidence that the five hiderances must be suppressed to some degree before practising satipattana- hence leaving less distracting thoughts floating about in the mind (not it's complete absence), making it easier to be mindful, thereby facilitating the process.
There needs to be a degree of concentration and mindfulness, but do not forget that the Satipatthana Sutta talks about being mindful of sense-desires, etc. when they are present.
I do not see how defilement patterns which arose in childhood (which is what I am tapping into now) can ever be worked with through mindfulness without doing this.
What about "defilement patterns which arose in" past lives?
Usually emotions have thoughts linked to them. I have found categorising/naming them especially under craving, aversion and delusions particularly helpful- because it forces the practitioner to recognise them for what they truly are. They may have been around for such a long time that they feel like second nature but they are nevertheless defilements.
How much do you have think about them in order to categorize them?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: noticing thoughts after or during the thinking....

Post by rowyourboat »

sorry about my quotation skills here! Tilts comments are after the quotes and my comments follow immediately.
tiltbillings wrote:
i have come to feel that the Buddha didnt want us to be observing superficial thoughts ('papanca') rather the mental 'ground' underneath those thoughts (ie where it grows out from) when the thoughts have gone quiet.
The interesting thing, if one is simply mindfully attending to whatever it is that comes into awareness, it really does not matter what it is: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized' [Ud 1 10].
I understand the above quote differently- I believe that it talks of 'bare' awareness- ie- nothing added. No need for a self or an observer, just being in the present moment, -cutting through the vipallasa to an enlightened mind state. If we consider the dhamma as a whole, we can see that in the satipatthana sutta the objects of awareness are grouped. I believe (in my experience) that there is an advantage in focusing on just one type of phenomena at a time. IMO the grouping has been done because there are concentrations of ignorance/avijja around each of those categories which is served by specific focus on them. Body-->some of the strongest attachment, Vedana-->gives rise to craving and aversion, drivers of the unenlightened state, thoughts--> our subjugation to their deluded commands and unawareness of subtle defilements. I do not have much experience with dhammanupassana to comment. In the Buddhas dispensation to know something fully is to give up all attachment-binding to it, according to the suttas. This is only possible when avijja pertaining to a given object is done away with. Also mindfulness when focused on a particular object (or should I say group of objects) grows in sensitivity particular to that object (with some degree of carry over across the board, but not as much). So this is another advantage in choosing a single foundation to work with.
t wrote:
r wrote:there is some evidence that the five hiderances must be suppressed to some degree before practising satipattana- hence leaving less distracting thoughts floating about in the mind (not it's complete absence), making it easier to be mindful, thereby facilitating the process.
There needs to be a degree of concentration and mindfulness, but do not forget that the Satipatthana Sutta talks about being mindful of sense-desires, etc. when they are present.
Yes, hindrances should not be present at the level that they are hindrances to mindfulness. In that situation the practice is not possible. In the gradual path (anupubbiya sikkha) 'cleaning the mind of obstructing things' while in cankama/walking meditation come before mindfulness of the four foundations. After that practice lesser degrees are permissible and actually quite useful to observe.
t wrote:
r wrote: I do not see how defilement patterns which arose in childhood (which is what I am tapping into now) can ever be worked with through mindfulness without doing this.
What about "defilement patterns which arose in" past lives?
Indeed. It is a matter of peeling the onion. The deeper layers maybe from past lives. I have known of one practicing nun who said she had to work past, past life issues as well.
t wrote:
r wrote:Usually emotions have thoughts linked to them. I have found categorising/naming them especially under craving, aversion and delusions particularly helpful- because it forces the practitioner to recognise them for what they truly are. They may have been around for such a long time that they feel like second nature but they are nevertheless defilements.
How much do you have think about them in order to categorize them?
Just a quick mental note 'ah, this is subtle craving' and move on to mindfulness. I think the issue is the mind is so complex that we need all the tool we can use. Yonisomanasikara- appropriate contemplation is for example a place where we use thinking to further path. There is no one single right tool, at the exclusion of all other tools. Other tools in the arsenal: faith, using other thoughts like in the vitakkasantana sutta, samadhi states, specific meditations to develop specific qualities (like metta), changing world views, keeping precepts, intention/aspirations, changing environments, good company all help.

metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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