Illusion and Emptiness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
5heaps
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:Hopkins' poly syllabic use of English is abysmal. I could not take Roach seriously if my life depended upon it.
lol... very good.
Common natal source means what?
Dr Berzin says:

"Two items share the same natal source (rdzas-gcig, same natalsubstance) if they arise from the same source. They may or may not be inseparable.
For example, a clay pot and its belly arise from the same potter’s wheel as their natal source and are inseparable, as is the case with a flame and the heat of the flame arising from the same match.
Two clay pots, however, may come from the same potter’s wheel, but are not inseparable. Likewise, two rebirths may arise from the same karmic legacy (sa-bon, karmic seed, karmic tendency) as their shared natal source, but are not inseparable."


Also, Dr Hopkins has a thorough explanation in “Emptiness in the Mind-Only School of Buddhism”. Michael Roach explains in ACI Course 15 http://acidharma.org/aci/online/course15.html
Some of this is word games. What, in fact, are you "negating?"
No it’s not. The negation here would be external physical form because such form derives from itself (its own substance, its own nature). According to emptiness, the reality of physical objects which appear to us is that they are devoid of such a self.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by Prasadachitta »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The Mahayana [read Tibetan scholastic Madhyamaka] jargon is a pain in the ass.
Uhhh, you don't know the half of it. Try dealing with each english scholar (ie. Dr Berzin, Dr Hopkins, Geshe Michael Roach, etc) each using their own unique english translations for the same ideas. You spend half your time working out what they're trying to refer to with the word they have chosen to use (until you understand the ideas very well and can recognize the meaning of the word based from how its being used - which takes years. Or until you learn tibetan well, which is much quicker). But, I really did try to talk as plainly as possible when giving the example.

I'll try to elaborate further. For example, the tactile sense consciousness of the body sense power and the object of that consciousness are devoid (empty) of arising from different sources (ie. they have a common natal source). In other words, although there is a subject and object, and an interaction between subject and object, they are the same essential nature.

This is very different to the, much more normal idea, that they ARE different natures, and that this must necessarily be the case in order to cognize a taxi. For example, if the taxi wasn't there you couldn't see it. How is it there? Well, a physical taxi is there through its physical causes and conditions, ultimately reducible down to its indivisible particles, which are also there. (Furthermore, Aryas, Arhats and Buddhas cognize these indivisible particles [and indivisible moments of mind], because that's for example how they gain powers over the elements, and their liberation from the cycle.) In other words if you accept this senseless mahayana emptiness stuff you not only negate taxis, you not only negate external indivisible particles, but you even negate nirvana - and what could possibly be more terrible than that?
Hi Five heaps,

I am not a scholar just a practitioner but I do have an impression of what is being negated when the word shunyanta is used. It is my impression that the value of establishing the actuality of objects, relationships, or qualities goes no further than the momentary actionable and otherwise practical purpose of seeing reality as it is. Upon the passing away of this object, relationship, or quality the question of whether it in actuality had or has any objective provable reality of its own is not valuable. What this means if one uses shunyata as a practice is that you act upon your assumptions to the degree that you think they are practical while keeping in mind that they are assumptions. What a practitioner of shunyata is doing is attempting to negate the need or the desire to have their assumptions established.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
5heaps
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by 5heaps »

gabrielbranbury wrote:What this means if one uses shunyata as a practice is that you act upon your assumptions to the degree that you think they are practical while keeping in mind that they are assumptions. What a practitioner of shunyata is doing is attempting to negate the need or the desire to have their assumptions established.
That's true of every buddhist because we are all trying to find the object of negation in order to negate our ignorance leaden obscurations.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by Prasadachitta »

5heaps wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:What this means if one uses shunyata as a practice is that you act upon your assumptions to the degree that you think they are practical while keeping in mind that they are assumptions. What a practitioner of shunyata is doing is attempting to negate the need or the desire to have their assumptions established.
That's true of every buddhist because we are all trying to find the object of negation in order to negate our ignorance leaden obscurations.
Very Good Then.

Sadhu


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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tiltbillings
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Hopkins' poly syllabic use of English is abysmal. I could not take Roach seriously if my life depended upon it.
lol... very good.
Common natal source means what?
Dr Berzin says:

"Two items share the same natal source (rdzas-gcig, same natalsubstance) if they arise from the same source. They may or may not be inseparable.
For example, a clay pot and its belly arise from the same potter’s wheel as their natal source and are inseparable, as is the case with a flame and the heat of the flame arising from the same match.
Two clay pots, however, may come from the same potter’s wheel, but are not inseparable. Likewise, two rebirths may arise from the same karmic legacy (sa-bon, karmic seed, karmic tendency) as their shared natal source, but are not inseparable."


Also, Dr Hopkins has a thorough explanation in “Emptiness in the Mind-Only School of Buddhism”. Michael Roach explains in ACI Course 15 http://acidharma.org/aci/online/course15.html
Some of this is word games. What, in fact, are you "negating?"
No it’s not. The negation here would be external physical form because such form derives from itself (its own substance, its own nature). According to emptiness, the reality of physical objects which appear to us is that they are devoid of such a self.
Do you know anything about Theravada?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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smokey
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by smokey »

I will quote WikiPedia:

"The teaching on the emptiness of all phenomena is a core basis of Buddhist philosophy and has implications for epistemology and phenomenology. It also constitutes a metaphysical critique of Greek philosophical realism, Abrahamic monotheism and Hindu concept of atman. Moreover, contrary to widely misconceived equation to the doctrine of nihilism, grasping the doctrine of sunyata is seen as a step to liberation. Unlike nihilism, emptiness maintains the Buddha's purpose.

Śūnyatā signifies that everything one encounters in life is empty of absolute identity, permanence, or an in-dwelling 'self'. This is because everything is inter-related and mutually dependent - never wholly self-sufficient or independent. All things are in a state of constant flux where energy and information are forever flowing throughout the natural world giving rise to and themselves undergoing major transformations with the passage of time.

This teaching does not connote nihilism. In the English language the word emptiness suggests the absence of spiritual meaning or a personal feeling of alienation, but in Buddhism the realization of the emptiness of phenomena, at basic level, enables one to realise that the things which ultimately have no independent substance cannot be subject to any irreconcilable conflicts or antagonisms. Ultimately, true realisation of the doctrine can bring liberation from the limitations of form in the cycle of uncontrolled rebirth.

Rawson states that: "[o]ne potent metaphor for the Void, often used in Tibetan art, is the sky. As the sky is the emptiness that offers clouds to our perception, so the Void is the 'space' in which objects appear to us in response to our attachments and longings."[4] The Japanese use of the Chinese character signifying Shunyata is also used to connote sky or air."
5heaps
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:Do you know anything about Theravada?
I understand it to be a system emphasizing meditation in order to deeply observe impermanence (more specifically, the constant change of things which undermines the natural cognition of things as being enduring).
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do you know anything about Theravada?
I understand it to be a system emphasizing meditation in order to deeply observe impermanence (more specifically, the constant change of things which undermines the natural cognition of things as being enduring).
So does this comment of yours refer to Theravada?: The negation here would be external physical form because such form derives from itself (its own substance, its own nature). According to emptiness, the reality of physical objects which appear to us is that they are devoid of such a self.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do you know anything about Theravada?
I understand it to be a system emphasizing meditation in order to deeply observe impermanence (more specifically, the constant change of things which undermines the natural cognition of things as being enduring).
So does this comment of yours refer to Theravada?: The negation here would be external physical form because such form derives from itself (its own substance, its own nature). According to emptiness, the reality of physical objects which appear to us is that they are devoid of such a self.
No, that's the whole point. Here there are 2 different types of 'emptiness'. The first is an emptiness of being able to endure through an own nature. The second is an emptiness of truly existing through an own nature.

With the first you cognize the utter absence of an enduring person through having observed and analyzed your heaps extremely well. Persons are devoid of an own nature and it's understood that one's heaps and all compounded in objects in general are equally void.

In addition to cognizing this the second emptiness also establishes that physical objects in general are devoid of truly existing, because they depend upon their respective sense consciousnesses in order to be established. The Buddhists-that-assert-true-existence would at this point critically point out the apparent paradox of being both dependent in order to be established whilst equally being devoid of enduring through an own nature. After all, what exactly is empty of an enduring own nature if you are dependent?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Anders
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by Anders »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
ashtanga wrote:I dont see (in my limited experience) that Theravada has any analytical meditation process on Emptiness...or am I off the mark?
For non-mahayana it is utterly nihilistic to say that, an apple for example, does not come from its own side.

Of course it comes from its own side! It is made up of fundamental particles (ie. ultimates).
Of course for the Theravada those "fundamental particle" are not self existing things and "exist" dependent upon conditions.
How can it be called fundamental or ultimate then, if that is the case?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by tiltbillings »

Anders Honore wrote: How can it be called fundamental or ultimate then, if that is the case?
Why must we assume a Mahayana definition is the arbiter of what is what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Anders
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by Anders »

tiltbillings wrote:
Anders Honore wrote: How can it be called fundamental or ultimate then, if that is the case?
Why must we assume a Mahayana definition is the arbiter of what is what?
Sigh, this is like feeding biscuits to a parrot.

Anyone familiar with the philosophical implications of the words 'fundamental' or 'ultimate particles' would logically ask such a question, as it rather starkly implies indivisibility and indivisibility implies phenomena that are not composite, composite being a fundamental aspect of anything dependedly originated. The arbiter here is plain logic.

Seriously, there is a whole world of physicists, metaphysicists, and philosophers of science who have asked these questions outside the shell world of madhyamika vs sarvastivada.

This was in fact why I asked, as a point of genuine curiosity, how does the Theravadin abidhamma reconcile what seems to be counterintuitive - that fundamental particles can be dependedly originated?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by tiltbillings »

Anders Honore wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Anders Honore wrote: How can it be called fundamental or ultimate then, if that is the case?
Why must we assume a Mahayana definition is the arbiter of what is what?


Sigh, this is like feeding biscuits to a parrot.
A childish comment.
This was in fact why I asked, as a point of genuine curiosity, how does the Theravadin abidhamma reconcile what seems to be counterintuitive - that fundamental particles can be dependedly originated?
I’ll be happy to give you a reading list.

It is important to understand that Buddhism (here meaning Theravada) is not doing science. It is not commenting on the nature of the “external” world. It is dealing with what is experienced. A “fundamental particle” of experience is hardly an unchanging, unconditioned thing. It is a way of talking about the flow of experience that our senses can give us which we can call this or that.

Ven Nyanamoli in a footnote in his PATH OF PURIFICATION, pages 317-8, states: "In the Pitakas the word sabhaava seems to appear only once...," it appears several times in Milindapanha, and it is used quite a bit in the PoP and it commentaries. He states it often roughly corresponds to dhaatu, element and to lakkhana, characteristic. An interesting passage from the PoP reads:

"On the contrary, before their rise [the bases, aayatana] they had no individual essence [sabhaava], and after their fall their individual essence are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery [being exercisable over them] since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future." Page 551 XV 15.

Piatigorsky (In his study of the Pitaka Abhidhamma texts, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 182) puts it: “From the point of view of consciousness, it can be said that, when consciousness is conscious of one’s mind, thought, or consciousness directed to their objects, then it is ‘being conscious of’ that may be named ‘a state of consciousness’ or a dharma.”

Piatigorsky (THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 146) explains: “the meaning of each abhidhammic term [dhamma] consists (or is the sum) of all its positional meanings and of all positional meanings of its connotations.”

Nyanaponika quotes a sub-commentary to an Abhidhamma text: "There is no other thing than the quality borne by it." (na ca dhaariyamma-sabhaavaa an~n~o dhammo naama atthi). Abhidhamma Studies, page 40. Which is to say: We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.

Nyanaponika ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, page 41 BPS; page 42 Wisdom wrote:By arranging the mental factors in relational groups a subordinate synthetical element has been introduced into the mainly analytical Dhammasangani. By so doing, the danger inherent in purely analytical methods is avoided. This danger consists in erroneously taking for genuine separate entities the “parts” resulting from analysis, instead of restricting their use to sound practical method with the purpose of classifying and dissolving composite events wrongly conceived as unities. Up to the present time it has been a regular occurrence in the history of physics, metaphysics, and psychology that when the “whole” has been successfully dissolved by analysis, the resultant “parts” themselves come in turn to be regarded as little “wholes.”

Prof. Dr. Y. Karunadasa, THE DHAMMA THEORY, page 9 http://www.zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf wrote:In the Pali tradition it is only for the sake of definition and description that each dhamma is postulated as if it were a separate entity; but in reality it is by no means a solitary phenomenon having an existence of its own. . . . If this Abhidhammic view of existence, as seen from its doctrine of dhammas, cannot be interpreted as a radical pluralism, neither can it be interpreted as an out-and-out monism. For what are called dhammas -- the component factors of the universe, both within us and outside us -- are not fractions of an absolute unity but a multiplicity of co-ordinate factors. They are not reducible to, nor do they emerge from, a single reality, the fundamental postulate of monistic metaphysics. If they are to be interpreted as phenomena, this should be done with the proviso that they are phenomena with no corresponding noumena, no hidden underlying ground. For they are not manifestations of some mysterious metaphysical substratum, but processes taking place due to the interplay of a multitude of conditions.

Harvey, in his excellent INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM, characterizes the Theravadin position, page 87: wrote: "'They are dhammas because they uphold their own nature [sabhaava]. They are dhammas because they are upheld by conditions or they are upheld according to their own nature' (Asl.39). Here 'own-nature' would mean characteristic nature, which is not something inherent in a dhamma as a separate ultimate reality, but arise due to the supporting conditions both of other dhammas and previous occurrences of that dhamma. This is of significance as it makes the Mahayana critique of the Sarvastivadin's notion of own-nature largely irrelevant to the Theravada."

A.K. Warder, in INDIAN BUDDHISM, page 323, discussing the Pali Abhidhamma commentarial literature wrote: "The most significant new idea in the commentaries is the definition of a 'principle' or element (dharma): dharmas are what have (or 'hold', 'maintain', dhr. is the nearest equivalent in the language to the English 'have') their own own-nature (svabhaava). It is added that they naturally have this through conditions."


Dhammas are "ultimate things" only as a way of talking about aspects of the relational flow of experience, not in terms of describing static realities. In other words, dhammas are empty of self.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Anders,
Anders Honore wrote: This was in fact why I asked, as a point of genuine curiosity, how does the Theravadin abidhamma reconcile what seems to be counterintuitive - that fundamental particles can be dependedly originated?
Doesn't seem so counterintuitive to me. "Fundamental" particles in physics (photons, electrons, etc) arise and disappear according to conditions (e.g. turning on your light switch creates photons, which get absorbed by matter, such as in your retina...).

I don't see any problem with dhammas (citta, etc) being "fundamental" in the sense of being "indivisible", but also "conditioned": arising and ceasing. Just because something is "indivisible" in some sense doesn't mean it lasts.

Metta
Mike
5heaps
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Re: Illusion and Emptiness

Post by 5heaps »

Anders Honore wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote: For non-mahayana it is utterly nihilistic to say that, an apple for example, does not come from its own side.

Of course it comes from its own side! It is made up of fundamental particles (ie. ultimates).
Of course for the Theravada those "fundamental particle" are not self existing things and "exist" dependent upon conditions.
How can it be called fundamental or ultimate then, if that is the case?
They are fundamental because they have individual defining characteristic marks, ie. findable true existence, regardless of the fact that they do not endure in some impossible way.

Furthermore they are fundamental (ultimate) in the sense that when you analyze partless particles and partless moments of consciousness the cognition of them is not eliminated, whereas when you analyze a chair or a table simply focusing on their parts cancels the cognition of the chair and the table. In this way chairs and tables are deceptive truths. Furthermore, chairs and tables obstruct their ultimate truths, namely the physical ultimates they are comprised of.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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