Pristine Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Bankei
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Pristine Theravada

Post by Bankei »

Hi

Do you think the Theravada canon and commentaries are the pristine teachings of the Buddha handed down unaltered from the time of the Buddha?

Why or why not?

Bankei
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by jcsuperstar »

maybe, maybe not. but even if it does we are still caught up in our own views and ideas (mistaken or not) and that may keep us from full utilization of even the most pure and perfect of teachings.
Last edited by jcsuperstar on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by DNS »

Bankei wrote: Do you think the Theravada canon and commentaries are the pristine teachings of the Buddha handed down unaltered from the time of the Buddha?
Why or why not?
It is hard to tell. Unless we are arahants, we cannot know for sure. So I like to read and study them all, the Canon and commentaries, but admittedly I have some of these concerns too, so focus mostly on that which is clearly Buddhavacana:

The first four Nikayas in their entirety plus the following books from the Khuddaka Nikaya: Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, Udana, Itivuttaka, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, and Therigatha; and the Patimokkha from the Vinaya.
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BlackBird
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by BlackBird »

I think the commentators got it wrong in quite a number of places. My opinion is based on the bits I've read of the Nibbana sermons by Venerable Nyanananda, and essays by Ven. Bodhisako.

metta
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by bodom »

Buddhadasa said "Regardless of whether the Tipitaka is exactly the original or a newly composed one as perceived by some people nowadays, actual cessation of dukkha always exists uniquely in accordance with idappaccayata. This is why the Buddha suggested in the Kalama Sutta that we not take anything as true just because it is referred to in a pitaka."

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Reductor »

Bankei wrote: Do you think the Theravada canon and commentaries are the pristine teachings of the Buddha handed down unaltered from the time of the Buddha?
Why or why not?
I think the cannon is close to the Buddha's teaching, but not unaltered. This is because people are faulty and the depths of time are deep and murky. Who knows for certain what occurred.

But you can study the cannon and conclude that it is remarkably consistent in its content. But I am far from scholar. The complexity of the teaching coupled with the consistency makes me confident that the doctrinal structure derived from a single source. I would place faith in it being the actual Buddha verses a group of persons or that it was structured over a long time by more than one person. Have you ever tried to corral a group of persons on even a trivial project? Consider doing that for tens of thousands of pages of complex doctrine.

But as David pointed out: we have to be arahants to know what is genuine Dhamma with complete certainty. In the mean time it is best to follow the advice found in the cannon: come and see.

Now, as the commentaries go: I take such things only as advice or as a second perspective to my own. Seems to me that there were no requirements for the composers to be accomplished in practice (or were there such requirements?).
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It is hard to tell. Unless we are arahants, we cannot know for sure. So I like to read and study them all, the Canon and commentaries, but admittedly I have some of these concerns too, so focus mostly on that which is clearly Buddhavacana:

The first four Nikayas in their entirety plus the following books from the Khuddaka Nikaya: Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, Udana, Itivuttaka, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, and Therigatha; and the Patimokkha from the Vinaya.
I haven't read much more than a couple verses of the Theragatha and Therigatha. Are their values derived from theoretical content, practical content or inspirational content.

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Ben
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi Bodom
bodom wrote:This is why the Buddha suggested in the Kalama Sutta that we not take anything as true just because it is referred to in a pitaka." :anjali:
With respect, I don't think the Kalama Sutta actually says that.
metta

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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

On this subject, I recommend...

What the Buddha Really Taught (The Pali Nikāyas and Chinese Āgamas) - Bhikkhu Sujato
http://santipada.googlepages.com/whatth ... allytaught" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It starts a little something like this...
When I go into a Buddhist bookshop or library, I’m often struck by how many books there are. Shelves crammed full of people’s opinions about ‘what the Buddha taught’. But try to find something that actually contains the Buddha’s teaching and you’re in for a much harder time. It seems to be okay to be a Buddhist, attend talks, read books, meditate, chant, and go on retreat, without ever bothering to ask oneself the question: what did the Buddha really teach?

For the rare and brave seeker who dares to inquire beyond what their teachers tell them, it will not take long before they hear of the Pali Nikāyas. Here, we are told, is the original unadulterated Teaching. The Buddha’s words in their pristine purity. We are in the enviable position of having many excellent translations of these texts available in English, both in books and on the web. Anyone with sufficient time and interest can, with a little perseverance, gain a reasonable understanding of these teachings. The Pali Nikāyas have been one of my formative influences, right from my first days as a Buddhist. The Dhamma they embody is clear, rational, balanced, gentle, and profound – everything one could hope for.

But it is easy to fall into a kind of ‘Pali fundamentalism’. The texts and language are so pure and precise that many of us who fall in love with the Nikāyas end up believing that they constitute the be-all and end-all of Buddhism. We religiously adhere to the finest distinction, the most subtle interpretation, based on a single word or phrase. We take for granted that here we have the original teaching, without considering the process by which these teachings have passed down to us. In our fervour, we neglect to wonder whether there might be another perspective on these Dhammas.

Perhaps most important of all, we forget – if we ever knew – the reasons why we are justified in considering the Nikāyas authentic in the first place. While it is good enough for most faith-based Buddhists to believe that their own scriptures are the only real ones, this will not suffice for a disinterested seeker. Any religious tradition will try to validate itself by such claims, and they can’t all be right. These conflicting claims led the early researchers in the modern era to examine the evidence more objectively.
(click link above to read full article)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by suanck »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

On this subject, I recommend...

What the Buddha Really Taught (The Pali Nikāyas and Chinese Āgamas) - Bhikkhu Sujato
http://santipada.googlepages.com/whatth ... allytaught" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ideally, one should read both the Pali Nikayas & the Chinese Agamas. Most of the Pali Nikayas have been translated to English, but for the Agamas, well, one would need to master either Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese language (as far as I know).

Suan.
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

suanck wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

On this subject, I recommend...

What the Buddha Really Taught (The Pali Nikāyas and Chinese Āgamas) - Bhikkhu Sujato
http://santipada.googlepages.com/whatth ... allytaught" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ideally, one should read both the Pali Nikayas & the Chinese Agamas. Most of the Pali Nikayas have been translated to English, but for the Agamas, well, one would need to master either Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese language (as far as I know).

Suan.
And Sanskrit, and Gandhari Prakrit, and Tokharin, and ...

(Hey, you said "ideally", not me! :tongue: )
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Sanghamitta »

Ben wrote:Hi Bodom
bodom wrote:This is why the Buddha suggested in the Kalama Sutta that we not take anything as true just because it is referred to in a pitaka." :anjali:
With respect, I don't think the Kalama Sutta actually says that.
metta

Ben
I dont think it does either. That is however one of the most widely disseminated inaccurate summations of what the Kalama Sutta says.

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Sanghamitta »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
suanck wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

On this subject, I recommend...

What the Buddha Really Taught (The Pali Nikāyas and Chinese Āgamas) - Bhikkhu Sujato
http://santipada.googlepages.com/whatth ... allytaught" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ideally, one should read both the Pali Nikayas & the Chinese Agamas. Most of the Pali Nikayas have been translated to English, but for the Agamas, well, one would need to master either Chinese, or Japanese, or Vietnamese language (as far as I know).

Suan.
And Sanskrit, and Gandhari Prakrit, and Tokharin, and ...

(Hey, you said "ideally", not me! :tongue: )
Another reason for my conclusion that the Nikayas are enough for me to be going on with.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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bodom
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by bodom »

Ben wrote:Hi Bodom
bodom wrote:This is why the Buddha suggested in the Kalama Sutta that we not take anything as true just because it is referred to in a pitaka." :anjali:
With respect, I don't think the Kalama Sutta actually says that.
metta

Ben
Hi Ben. Could you explain further to me what it is exactly you dont agree about Buddhadasa's statement. My understanding is that Buddhadasa's statement is completely in line with all the translations i have checked. He is saying not to take anything on blind faith.

"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt...So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by...scripture. - Thanissaro translation

"It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; Do not go upon what...is in a scripture. - Soma translation

" It is fitting for you to be perplexed , O Kalamas , it is fitting for you to be in doubt...Do not go by...a collection of texts. - Bodhi translation.
Last edited by bodom on Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

I think the Pāli canon is close enough to what the Buddha said to make discerning what is and what is not Dhamma due to the editing process within the canon possible.

the commentaries are a different matter as they are not necessarily in accordance with the canon all the time, plus there are rumours that some parts of the commentaries are not translated correctly.
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Re: Pristine Theravada

Post by DNS »

thereductor wrote: I haven't read much more than a couple verses of the Theragatha and Therigatha. Are their values derived from theoretical content, practical content or inspirational content.
All of the above. :tongue:

The poetic verses are practical, inspiring, and have good Dhamma lessons in them too. All were arahants, the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, who wrote them.
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