The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

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Jechbi
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding all of the teachings on kamma that I've ever heard or read from various teachers (such as Bhikkhu Bodhi) ...
I wouldn't say that about you at all.
mikenz66 wrote:... but if only "predictable bad stuff" happens what is the point of the Buddha's teaching that bad kamma leads to bad results? As Bhikkhu Bodhi says in the quote I gave above, bad kamma leaves an "imprint" on the thought-stream that gives an inclination for certain situations, in this life or future lives, where suffering will occur. Since we are not even Arahants, let alone Buddha's, these situations will seem random.
That makes sense to me. I'm not ready to dismiss the idea that some of the seemingly random events that befall us might be things that, in some way, we've unknowingly brought upon ourselves. As you say, who can know for sure?

At this point, there's nothing we can do about it, though. No use crying over spilt milk. So I like your idea of understanding it in a forward-looking way: What can I do here and now that will be the most beneficial kamma?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Tilt,

Sure, as you say, kamma is not the only factor in causing unpleasant feelings. And I'm certainly not arguing that a Tsumami happens as the result of kamma. But as I understand it, being born in, or moving to, a Tsunami-prone region, may well be...

And, of course, going back to Bhikkhu Bodhi's talk, if one accepts that human-induced global warming is happening, then it is clearly, by definition, a result of human action (setting aside the technicalities of what is vipaka).

I guess we could save a bit of time if we were able to read the old thread on E-Sangha where Retro (among others) went through the same discussion.

Metta
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Tilt,

Sure, as you say, kamma is not the only factor in causing unpleasant feelings. And I'm certainly not arguing that a Tsumami happens as the result of kamma. But as I understand it, being born in, or moving to, a Tsunami-prone region, may well be...
Maybe, or maybe not. One thing, as in the lowlands of Bangldesh, there are simply too many people in the world, pushing us to live in places where we should not, but what is the role kamma plays in living to close to Vesuvius, not knowing that is has ever erupted to the extant that it could wipe one's city?
And, of course, going back to Bhikkhu Bodhi's talk, if one accepts that human-induced global warming is happening, then it is clearly, by definition, a result of human action (setting aside the technicalities of what is vipaka).
The emergence of intelligence, I am convinced, tends to unbalance the ecology. In other words, intelligence is the great polluter. It is not until a creature begins to manage its environment that nature is thrown into disorder. Until that occurs, there is a system of checks and balances operating in a logical and understandable manner. Intelligence destroys and modifies the checks and balances even as it tries very diligently to leave them as they were. There is no such thing as an intelligence living harmony with the biosphere. It may think and boast it is doing so, but its mentality gives it an advantage and the compulsion is always there to employ this advantage to its selfish benefit. Thus, while intelligence may be an outstanding survival factor, the factor is short-term, and intelligence turns out to be the great destroyer. -- written by a crazy character in SHAKESPEARE'S PLANET, a sci-fi novel by Clifford Simak, 1976.
I guess we could save a bit of time if we were able to read the old thread on E-Sangha where Retro (among others) went through the same discussion.
It is obviously dead. One has to wonder what actions (kamma and of whom) that gave rise to that result.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Cooran,

And after all that looking, I now just accidentally stumble across it.
cooran wrote:
Retro said: Many suttas were also constructed to fit certain structural templates. For example, often, if the location of a particular teaching was not known, the commentators advise us that the editors often placed the location in one of the major cities. So "at Savatthi" might not always mean "at Savatthi"! But then, location is just a peripheral aspect to a sutta, as is a bhikkhu's mode of death...
Could you give a link to where the commentaries state this please? Then those who wish can read for themselves.
A bhikkhus' mode of death, particularly one with attainments, and particularly when stated by the Buddha in answer to a direct question, is not a peripheral aspect to a sutta.

Repetition is used in the Suttas for those portions which were to be emphasised.

metta
Chris
It seems it was the Vinaya, not the commentaries (though i suppose it could well be in the commentaries too, since they're oft to explain pitaka content in more detail)...

From What the Buddha Really Taught by Bhikkhu Sujato
http://santipada.googlepages.com/whatth ... allytaught" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This does not mean that everything found in these texts is literally the ‘Word of the Buddha’. The first schism was over 100 years after the Buddha’s parinibbana, which allows plenty of time for editorial funny business. The texts themselves remind us that what is essential are ‘those suttas spoken by the Tathagata’. Much of the material in the early Nikāyas/Āgamas is not ‘spoken by the Tathagata’, for example, background stories and narrative. This should not be regarded as authoritative in the deep sense. And indeed, comparison between corresponding sutras in the Nikāyas and Āgamas frequently reveals that, while the doctrinal matter is very similar, the setting and other incidental details may be different. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, but shows a tendency in the compilation of the canon to regard doctrinal matter as the heart, and treat incidental matter more freely. There are even instructions in two Vinayas on what to do if one forgets the setting of a sutra. These more-or-less instruct the monks to just say it was at Sāvatthī!

He doesn't say exactly where but he seems contactable online and would probably be amenable to a request for clarification.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bazzaman
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by bazzaman »

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Last edited by bazzaman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bazzaman,
bazzaman wrote:perhaps the earth opening up and swallowing that scoundrel Ven. Devadata might be worth considering. Don't have a reference at hand; but I think it's probably in the suttas, rather than the commentaries.
From page 271 of Ven. Nanamoli's "The Life Of The Buddha: According To The Pali Canon"...
The Canon does not relate the actual circumstances of Devadatta's death. According to the Commentary the earth opened and he was swalllowed up and engulfed in hell, to remain there till the destruction of the hells on the advent of the next cycle of world contraction.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bazzaman
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by bazzaman »

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Last edited by bazzaman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bazzaman,

No worries... reading the book, I too was quite surprised about how much of what we assume to be Sutta or Vinaya material about the Buddha's life actually comes from the commentarial tradition instead.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bazzaman,

No worries... reading the book, I too was quite surprised about how much of what we assume to be Sutta or Vinaya material about the Buddha's life actually comes from the commentarial tradition instead.

Metta,
Retro.
'Including the name Siddhattha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bazzaman
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Re: The Dhamma as cosmic enforcer?

Post by bazzaman »

Not much of a reader these past few years (except for what appears on my computer screen). But since you guys like Ven. Nanamoli's book, I'll search it out and buy it.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
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