Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Cap,
thecap wrote:Dhammanando: I didn't miss it. It just isn't relevant to the question that Jason was raising.

It is relevant to the topic.
But I was confining myself to answering Jason's question. The answer may not have any bearing on the topic as a whole, for as far as I know the commentators don't link the inferiority of feminine rūpadhammas with the inability of a woman to become a Sammāsambuddha.
Dhammanando: The fact that women's bodies are weaker and more easily injured than those of men lends support to the abhidhammikas' claim that the femininity rūpadhammas are generated by past akusala kamma and masculinity rūpadhammas by past kusala kammas.

Does this mean that being a woman is a punishment for past misdeeds?
No. It means that those material dhammas originated by wholesome kamma will be superior to those originated by unwholesome kamma. When talking abhidhammically one must get into the habit of conceiving matters in impersonal terms.

The fact that women have the canniness to make the best of a bad lot doesn't negate this.

What "bad lot", Bhante?
Possession of a body composed in part of non-optimal rūpadhammas.

A one-legged beggar, by eliciting more sympathy from passers-by, might well make a better living than a two-legged beggar; nonetheless, it remains the case that two-leggedness is the more desirable state.

Women aren't cripples.
I was making an analogy.

Other things being equal, a human is better advantaged by being a biped than a uniped; nonetheless, some human unipeds can turn their less-than-optimal state to good use.

Other things being equal, a human is better advantaged by being a man than a woman; nonetheless, some women can turn their less-than-optimal state to good use. As you put it yourself:

"Women can and do well pretend to be weaker than they are in order to attract mates, for this is what usually pleases the male ego."

In practice, of course, other things are rarely equal. Better, for example, to have the feminine rūpadhammas of a Mahāpajāpati or a Khemā than the male ones of a Devadatta or an Ariṭṭha the vulture-trainer.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Ben
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ben »

Hi thecap

Pragmatically, I think it is irrelevant if one is born a man or a woman. So long as one has access to the Dhamma, that is all that matters. The Tipitaka and commentarial literature is replete with examples of female arahants. They have achieved the final goal, when the vast majority of samsaric beings, including all but a tiny fraction of human males, have not.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

Typically, when the woman finally denies her love and finds more happiness in churches and temples, men become bitter misogynists badmouthing what they have lost control over.
My mother always had control over her husband. Maybe these women need assertiveness training.

E
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retrofuturist
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Element,

The link between your comments and the topic at hand is becoming increasingly tenuous.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

thecap wrote:I don't think it's an unfortunate position to have Dhamma at our fingertips.
Really? You think it's better to a] have the entire body of teachings dropped in your lap with no guidance as to what's beneficial for your personal practice and what's not than to b] have a wise teacher give you just what you need to advance in your practice? I find that hard to believe, but maybe I'm missing something.

Please then be so kind as to answer piotr's question, for my benefit as well. What benefit to your practice is this teaching of "no female Buddha's" providing?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Peter wrote:
thecap wrote:I don't think it's an unfortunate position to have Dhamma at our fingertips.
Really? You think it's better to a] have the entire body of teachings dropped in your lap with no guidance as to what's beneficial for your personal practice and what's not than to b] have a wise teacher give you just what you need to advance in your practice? I find that hard to believe, but maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for asking this question, I wonder how other people here think about it.

My personal answer is, yes, but I understand if this is not the case for everyone. People who are insecure and lack intuition may need personal guidance. Therefore it seems to be good to have both, the entire teachings and a personal guide. However, not all people have the good fortune to have a personal guide where they live. And I don't see reason in locking the blinkers over one's eyes whenever an unpleasant question arises, do you?
Please then be so kind as to answer piotr's question, for my benefit as well. What benefit to your practice is this teaching of "no female Buddha's" providing?
Firstly, this is a General Theravada discussion forum, not a practise forum ;). Secondly, investigation of Dhamma is the second enlightenment factor, according to the Buddha, so at least, it doesn't hurt practise to ask questions, does it? Thirdly, the particular incidence that prompted the question "Women can't be enlightened [in the same way men can be enlightened]?" was someone I met publicly saying that Buddhism is misogynic. I didn't know how to respond in an adequate way and got interested in investigating this question further by starting a thread. Did that answer your questions?
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Ben
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ben »

thecap wrote:Thirdly, the particular incidence that prompted the question "Women can't be enlightened [in the same way men can be enlightened]?" was someone I met publicly saying that Buddhism is misogynic. I didn't know how to respond in an adequate way and got interested in investigating this question further by starting a thread. Did that answer your questions?
Hi thecap

I suggest that the person you met was mistaken. Women can achieve the status of an arahant. And according to the Theravada, an arahant's enlightenment is no different to a Sammasambuddha's enlightenment.

You may be interested in this inspiring publication: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha by Hellmuth Hecker, translated from the German by Sister Khema: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el292.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you may know, within the canon is a collection of verses uttered by Ariyan bhikkhunis, known as the Therigatha.
There is nothing second rate about a woman, a female Dhamma practitioner or the enlightenment of a woman.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Dhammanando wrote:When talking abhidhammically one must get into the habit of conceiving matters in impersonal terms.
.
Possession of a body composed in part of non-optimal rūpadhammas.
.
In practice, of course, other things are rarely equal. Better, for example, to have the feminine rūpadhammas of a Mahāpajāpati or a Khemā than the male ones of a Devadatta or an Ariṭṭha the vulture-trainer.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Excellent, Bhante. Thanks for your clarification and patience.
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cooran
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by cooran »

Ben wrote:
thecap wrote:Thirdly, the particular incidence that prompted the question "Women can't be enlightened [in the same way men can be enlightened]?" was someone I met publicly saying that Buddhism is misogynic. I didn't know how to respond in an adequate way and got interested in investigating this question further by starting a thread. Did that answer your questions?
Hi thecap

I suggest that the person you met was mistaken. Women can achieve the status of an arahant. And according to the Theravada, an arahant's enlightenment is no different to a Sammasambuddha's enlightenment.

You may be interested in this inspiring publication: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha by Hellmuth Hecker, translated from the German by Sister Khema: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el292.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you may know, within the canon is a collection of verses uttered by Ariyan bhikkhunis, known as the Therigatha.
There is nothing second rate about a woman, a female Dhamma practitioner or the enlightenment of a woman.
Metta

Ben
Hello Ben,

Yes, I agree. If there were 700 thousand million billion trillion female beings and 700 thousand million billion trillion male beings in existence ~ only one of the total beings, who happened to be male in that rebirth, could become a Sammasambuddha if the time was ripe.

All of the other beings have the capacity at some time to become fully enlightened Arahants. There is Nothing in this for beings who are currently in male form to feel superior over. There is Nothing in this for beings who are presently in female form to feel despondent over. It isn't going to happen for all except one male being.
metta
Chris

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

thecap wrote:Did that answer your questions?
You did not answer either question. :shrug:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Element,

The link between your comments and the topic at hand is becoming increasingly tenuous.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks Retro

However, you and others should know by now Element is sexist and often tenuous on these matters.

Element is into 'Man's Liberation'. 8-)

E
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Annapurna
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Annapurna »

Element wrote:
Typically, when the woman finally denies her love and finds more happiness in churches and temples, men become bitter misogynists badmouthing what they have lost control over.
My mother always had control over her husband. Maybe these women need assertiveness training.

E
Thanks, Element.

Could be.

In many cultures women are discouraged from childhood on to be assertive. Actually, men often feel intimidated by selfconfident women.
"Women can and do well pretend to be weaker than they are in order to attract mates, for this is what usually pleases the male ego."
I have also hidden my true strenght at times, but because I knew the man would feel inferior, and that is not a nice feeling for anybody.

I wouldn't really want to call it "pretend" therefore, but harmlessness, by giving up what causes others to suffer. (Winner/looser) Instead, a *win/win* situation is created, consciously, which I find a tactful and selfless achievement, based on respect for the other one's feelings and compassion. :namaste:
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Annapurna
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Annapurna »

Possession of a body composed in part of non-optimal rūpadhammas.
Hello, Bhante,

I really have difficulty to see that women have non-optimal rupadhammas.

Perhaps I am confusing this with something else, but:

whilst there is more muscular strength available for men in most body parts,( exception belly muscles network, men get hernias a lot more often than women, ) women are superior in handling pain and often have more endurance than men.

I also find that men are usually much more BURDENED with tanha, craving than women, especially for sex and power.

Women are often much more capable of compassion than men.

So any superiority seems wishful thinking of the needy to me, I'm sorry, and perhaps deluded, but that's how many women feel, while 'men' are in love with their little egotrips. .
Last edited by Annapurna on Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Peter wrote:
thecap wrote:Did that answer your questions?
You did not answer either question. :shrug:
Then read again, dear Peter. I answered as best as seemingly possible, considering that your first question is an unrealistic either-or choice, and your second question is irrelevant to a general discussion forum. :namaste:
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Ben wrote:I suggest that the person you met was mistaken.
Indeed.
Women can achieve the status of an arahant. And according to the Theravada, an arahant's enlightenment is no different to a Sammasambuddha's enlightenment.

You may be interested in this inspiring publication: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha by Hellmuth Hecker, translated from the German by Sister Khema: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el292.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you may know, within the canon is a collection of verses uttered by Ariyan bhikkhunis, known as the Therigatha.
There is nothing second rate about a woman, a female Dhamma practitioner or the enlightenment of a woman.
Yes, even though it looks like the Abhidhamma's impersonal approach can be easily misunderstood or misinterpreted.
And thanks for the link, Ben. :thumbsup:
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