Satipatthana sequencing

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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phil
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by phil »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Phil,

Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization
by Analayo
http://www.windhorsepublications.com/Ca ... ductID=681" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike

Thanks Mike, that's the one.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Analayo's text has been mentioned above (in particular a section from later in the book), but as I go through the text now, I see that the matter of sequencing is actually covered off quite early in the piece in Chapters 1.2 & 1.3.... for anyone interested in checking that out.

:reading:

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Ben »

Hi Paul
Jump to Ch IV.4 and check out the satipatthana sequencing in the Anapana Sutta.
kind regards

Ben
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catmoon
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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retrofuturist wrote:
Comments, questions, corrections, criticisms, slaps around the face... whatever is relevant... are all appreciated.

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
*SLAP* :jumping:


Retro, are you in danger of constructing a pet theory?

It seems clear to me that the idea is that there are these four objects of meditation, any of which may be used to progress as far as desired. By placing them in rigid sequence, it seems to me that you condemn all meditators to spending three fourths of their time meditating with an object unsuited to them!
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Catmoon,
catmoon wrote:By placing them in rigid sequence, it seems to me that you condemn all meditators to spending three fourths of their time meditating with an object unsuited to them!
The sequence is not rigid, but not irrelevant either. If sati is already strong enough to attend to dhammas, then why not dive right in? That's where the delusions of self will become untangled.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by bodom »

In my experience the four establishments can only be seperated on paper. In actual contemplation they may arise in any sequence and or order. In Nyanaponika thera's heart of buddhist meditation pg. 58 he recommends focusing on a few selected contemplations and turning attention to the other contemplation's when an opportunity in the course of pactice arises.

Bodhi in ACM pg. 279 says " The four foundations of mindfulness have a single essence, which consists of mindful contemplation of phenomenon. They are differentiated in so far as this mindful contemplation is to be applied to four objects."

Ps 1 240 also says that "It is only by way of differing objects that they are distinguished.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:In my experience the four establishments can only be seperated on paper.
What about those which are sensory inputs versus those which are responses to those inputs?

What do you make of Nathan's earlier comment?
Nathan wrote:I think the satipatthana frames of reference are discernibly distinct avenues of lived experience.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:In my experience the four establishments can only be seperated on paper.
What about those which are sensory inputs versus those which are responses to those inputs?

What do you make of Nathan's earlier comment?
Nathan wrote:I think the satipatthana frames of reference are discernibly distinct avenues of lived experience.
Metta,
Retro. :)
I fail to see the ability to seperate sense input from the reaction or vedana as it is dependently arisen.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. If there were no contact at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., contact at the eye, contact at the ear, contact at the nose, contact at the tongue, contact at the body, or contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of contact, from the cessation of contact, would feeling be discerned?" DN 15
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by bodom »

As for nathans comment distinct yes but not seperate. This is just my limited understanding. How will i know im wrong if im not corrected?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:I fail to see the ability to seperate sense input from the reaction or vedana as it is dependently arisen.
Well the matter of dependent origination is precisely why I ask, although in the sutta quotation you provided, it stopped before getting to tanha (craving), which is itself dependent arisen from vedana. I think this as an important step to observe, and of course, one more associated with the latter aspects of the satipatthana sequence.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:I fail to see the ability to seperate sense input from the reaction or vedana as it is dependently arisen.
Well the matter of dependent origination is precisely why I ask, although in the sutta quotation you provided, it stopped before getting to tanha (craving), which is itself dependent arisen from vedana. I think this as an important step to observe, and of course, one more associated with the latter aspects of the satipatthana sequence.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Agreed.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Freawaru
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Retro,

I have been wondering about these character classes in Theravada for I don't see them as useful or correct regarding meditation practice so far. What I do find on the other hand is that practice and access of the object of sati depends on my current state. For example, when I am agitated and wake and "nervous", extrovert, it is more easy to be mindful of consciousness than feelings or the body. When I am tired and mentally slow it is more easy to observe the body (breath etc) than thoughts or feelings. When my mind is wake and keen and "introvert" dhamma becomes accessible. It seems to me more a matter of what object frame is dominant at the given moment than an actual "character class" of persons that can access this or that frame more easily.
retrofuturist wrote:
In the introduction to Soma Thera's commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta there is talk, based on the traditional commentarial expositions about choosing one frame of reference as your "preliminary object of contemplation"
All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort.

By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective.

According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects.

According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object.

Further, contemplation on the body destroys the delusion of beauty; that on feeling destroys the delusion of pleasure; contemplation on consciousness dispels the delusion of permanence; and that on mental objects, the delusion of the soul.
For example to start with the satipatthana sutta (the long breath) I need to slow down my mind first. To relax body and thoughts, emotions, feelings etc, to make them slow, weak, languid. Only then the more subtle aspects of the body become accessible. Obviously, one does not need to relax body and thoughts to practice sati on the feelings. On the contrary. It is more easy to discern whatever arises as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral when the mind is in any extrovert state and so on. When relaxing my mind, making it weak, for sleep or daydreaming, etc, it is most easy to practice the consciousness-objects while observing the mental object requires quite some sharpness of mind.

So I would say it is more a matter of understanding oneself first, which frame of reference is more accessible than the others at any given time to decide for an object of sati.

I know this is not as teachers like Soma Thera seem to teach it but it works for me.
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mikenz66
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by mikenz66 »

Freawaru wrote: So I would say it is more a matter of understanding oneself first, which frame of reference is more accessible than the others at any given time to decide for an object of sati.

I know this is not as teachers like Soma Thera seem to teach it but it works for me.
My recollection of the book is that he discusses the usual Mahasi-style stuff, and that's exactly what is taught - be aware of whatever arises. Of course, one uses rising-falling etc if nothing else arises...

Metta
Mike
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

Post by bodom »

I came across an interesting and relevent passage in Analalayo's satipatthana commentary in which he quotes an article by Goenka entitled "Sensation the Key to Satipatthana" pg. 22 note 16. In this article Goenka proposes that "Since the "body" is to be experienced via "feelings", which at the same time are related to the "mind" by being "mental objects" , by observing bodily sensations one can cover all four satipatthanas.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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catmoon
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Re: Satipatthana sequencing

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Catmoon,


The sequence is not rigid, but not irrelevant either. If sati is already strong enough to attend to dhammas, then why not dive right in? That's where the delusions of self will become untangled.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I feel quite unsure that I understand what exactly you are saying.

It seems to me you are advocating using all objects of meditation. The reason not to do this is that you would not want an excitable person to use an object that excites the mind, or you would not want a tranquilizing object if you tend to torpor. And so on.
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