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Women can't become Buddhas? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:30 pm

Isnt this all coming from assuptions that all men and women are the same.

That all men are strong and all women have grace and negotiating skills etc

Some men arent strong and do acctualy get this from their female partner and some women can learn grace etc from their male partner.

Also the conditions in which the old evolutionary traits of males as hunters and females as nest builders no longer apply in any real sense in the modern world, at least not in first world countries as these societies are man made constructs, shaped by ideas of equality and individual rights and so are far removed from natural habbitat so any natural evolutionary traits no longer have any meaning.

:focus: In reguards to this threads title, yes a women can become enlightened. If a women can become a buddha, most likely we will never know for sure but it doesnt really matter. "Women" is just a convenient description as is "Man" that involves identification with one or more aggregates and a Buddha cannot be pinned down as being one of the aggregates.

A Buddha is neither man nor women in reality.

:namaste:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:04 pm



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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Individual » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:11 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Element » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:15 pm

Last edited by Element on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Element » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:21 pm


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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Individual » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:26 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:44 pm



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retrofuturist
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:46 pm

Greetings,

My take is that we need to renounce both masculinity and feminity.

The Buddha merely defines and differentiates them to provide clarity for us on what needs to be renounced.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:48 pm



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Cittasanto
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:52 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Dhammakid
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:06 pm

Hello Sangha,
It seems Bhante and a few others are basically saying the same thing: feminine dhammas are the result of unwholesome kamma ripening during an age where men have gained dominance and control over society. It's the harsh truth from a Buddhist point of view, just as a "good" person being tortured to death by a serial killer is also the harsh truth. Kamma is a universal law. Compassion evolves out of noticing how kamma affects us based on our actions, and teaching all beings to change their ways in order to cultivate wholesome kamma and eventually attain liberation.

I personally believe I have many feminine dhammas, although obviously they have not manifested as female biology. But I ruminate quite often, I show great compassion and I tend far more to female company than male. Then again, I'm not the only male in the world like this. Gender is a spectrum, and is not the equal to biological sex.

Analogy: I'm an African American male. Statistics show I will likely end up dead or in prison. Furthermore, my people are bound by so much racism and classism still prevalent in today's world. Yet, I am heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. It has nothing to do inherently with me being Black, but rather I have cultivated unwholesome conditions for myself, and those with higher status and power have cultivated some wholesome kamma for themselves to be in power (although I guess it can be argued that being a racists/classists is either the result of unwholesome kamma or is actively creating unwholesome kamma).

I also have depression, and no health insurance to pay for medication or check-ups. I had to drop out of school due to lack of funds. And, worst of all, I was born in the States! (Haha). And yet, I have to listen to all you elitist Buddhist hippies tell me it's my fault? Well, yes, kind of, because I am heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, abide supported by my kamma.

That doesn't negate women's struggle for equality and fair treatment in society (I am a feminist, after all). But it also means we should be wise and listen to the compassionate teaching when it's available to us, so we can cultivate the conditions for a favorable rebirth.

I, for one, hope to cultivate the conditions to be born as a woman during an aeon when women dominate society. Why not? The point is to eliminate suffering, and right practice now makes it possible later.

Consider the fact that the Buddha was the victim of an apparent murder attempt by his own family member and was forced to endure a quite excruciating stab to the foot by a sliver of hard rock. Did he complain? No. He guarded his sense-doors and gained the devas' applause. True compassion for all beings sees through the delusion of others, even when it's male chauvinists and misogynists ruining society as we know it. Because true compassion is selfless, and understands we are all deluded in some way. And when the powerful are deluded, they show it in more outwardly devastating ways than the delusion of the subordinate. All it means is the Dhamma is that much more important to society.

I love the explanation that the Enlightenment of a male Sammasambuddha is no different than the Enlightenment of a female Arahant. That pretty much answers the question.

I'm either right, wrong, or neither - but I guess I'll find out! (Thanks, Manapa!)

:namaste:
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:25 pm



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Jason
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:54 am

Last edited by Jason on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Jason
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:00 am

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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cooran
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:10 am

Hello Elohim,

Which particular things do you disagree with, and why? Not arguing, just interested.

metta
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:15 am

this is a topic that really goes nowhere, and doesnt make anyone happy. really doesnt seem to serve any purpose either...

but i keep thinking about it now, and i cant think of any examples of women going off to do anything similar to the Buddha. well going off to join spiritual comunities, yes, but just going off into the wilderness alone, no. its only desert sages, recluses, hermits and crazy old men.

and other than those rare few guys who go off alone it's not even a matter of men vs women...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:23 am

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:39 am

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:41 am

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:57 am

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