noting during dream

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Freawaru
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noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:29 am

Hello All,

during dream one is usually too unaware to practice much but now and then there are lucid dreams. When knowing that one dreams during dream has anybody ever tried to note (in the Mahasi style or otherwise)? One could start by noting "lucid dream, lucid dream" for example. Or when walking in the dream "walking in dream, walking in dream" or when the dream changes into another dream "shift, shift" or something like that.

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Orbiting-Awareness » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:36 am

This is quite an interesting topic. I wonder if while in a lucid dream you could perhaps do some sitting meditation. I might have to try this when I go to bed, if I can remember to! That might be the biggest problem, Telling yourself to note what's happening.

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poto
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Re: noting during dream

Postby poto » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:47 am

I've had many lucid dreams, but haven't thought to specifically do noting in them.

One thing I've noticed is that if I spend a lot of time meditating or am on retreat I tend to meditate in my dreams. I don't try to meditate in my dreams, it just happens. And if I'm tempted with a beautiful woman I'll ignore her or push her away and return to my 'dream practice'. Not sure why I do that in my dreams since I'm pretty sure that if a beautiful women threw herself on me in my waking life I wouldn't push her away, lol.

When I'm lax in my practice I tend to give into the temptations in my dreams. I dunno... I don't really assign much significance to dreams.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

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Ben
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:00 am

Hi Freewaru
Freawaru wrote:When knowing that one dreams during dream has anybody ever tried to note (in the Mahasi style or otherwise)?


Yes, a number of times I maintained awareness during sleep and meditated the entire night. On one occassion i was travelling home from India after attending the Indian Winter program at my teacher's centre.
Which is different from other occassions where I was experiencing lucid dreaming and during the lucid dream extend awareness to my meditation object.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Freewaru
Freawaru wrote:When knowing that one dreams during dream has anybody ever tried to note (in the Mahasi style or otherwise)?


Yes, a number of times I maintained awareness during sleep and meditated the entire night. On one occassion i was travelling home from India after attending the Indian Winter program at my teacher's centre.
Which is different from other occassions where I was experiencing lucid dreaming and during the lucid dream extend awareness to my meditation object.
kind regards

Ben

hi all & Ben
The only part I know of in the suttas refering to practicing while asleep is in the satipatthana sutta
The Section about Clear Knowing - Sampajānapabbaṃ wrote:gate ṭhite nisinne; sutte jāgarite; bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī hoti.
while walking, standing still, and sitting; while asleep, or awake; while talking, and remaining silent, be one who exists mindfully;


I have assumed it was sleep paralysis that was referred to as I don't remember any dreams, except one recurring one which I haven't had in some time, although I have experienced sleep paralysis more often.
I would be very interested in hearing more about the lucid dream meditation, and how is it different from standard practice!

does anyone know of any other reference within the suttas or teachers who have taught or talked, or even research done?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: noting during dream

Postby poto » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:09 pm

Thanks for posting the sutta quote. Existing mindfully pretty accurately describes the sleep mediation experiences I've had. If I could exist mindfully all the time, I'd be a much better person.

Manapa wrote:I would be very interested in hearing more about the lucid dream meditation, and how is it different from standard practice!


For me, the sleep experiences I've had are very calm and tranquil, but I don't feel as clearly focused or aware as during real waking meditation sessions. That could just be me though.

I have noticed I tend to wake up much more relaxed and calm when I have those experiences. Usually I'm pretty grumpy when I wake up.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Moggalana » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:16 pm

Manapa wrote:I have assumed it was sleep paralysis that was referred to as I don't remember any dreams, except one recurring one which I haven't had in some time, although I have experienced sleep paralysis more often.
I would be very interested in hearing more about the lucid dream meditation, and how is it different from standard practice!

does anyone know of any other reference within the suttas or teachers who have taught or talked, or even research done?


Unfortunately, I can't point you to anything Theravadin. However, lots of information can be found in a western psychological background or in the context of Vajrayana. As this is the Theravadin meditation section, I don't want to go into too much detail. A general overview can be found on Wikipedia. If you are interested in a book, Stephen LaBerge might be a good starting point. The Vajrayana term would be Milam (Dream Yoga). There also is sleeping meditation (which sounds similiar to what Ben described).

Regarding the topic: A couple of nights ago, something strange happened. I was somewhat aware of my dreaming state and noted more or less unintentionally: This is a dream, this is a dream. I wouldn't describe it as full awareness or lucidity though because it only lasted a short period of time.
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:59 pm

Would this be a description of sleeping meditation then
body asleep, mind awake, where the body is asleep, but the mind is in different levels of consciousness which is able to be turned to the outside world in some levels such as sleep paralysis?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Moggalana
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Moggalana » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:52 pm

Manapa wrote:Would this be a description of sleeping meditation then
body asleep, mind awake, where the body is asleep, but the mind is in different levels of consciousness which is able to be turned to the outside world in some levels such as sleep paralysis?


Probably. But I am not an expert either.
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

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Re: noting during dream

Postby bodom » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:57 pm

Wow i have a difficult enough time noting during meditation let alone noting while sleeping.
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

Freawaru
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:12 pm

Manapa wrote:Would this be a description of sleeping meditation then
body asleep, mind awake, where the body is asleep, but the mind is in different levels of consciousness which is able to be turned to the outside world in some levels such as sleep paralysis?


Hi Manapa,

an interesting question.

So far I have interpreted this aspect ("in sleeping, in waking") of the satipatthana suttas as during all kinds of sleep: dream, deep sleep and those hybrid states like sleep paralysis. One is supposed to keep Clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna) during them all.

Quite a challenge !

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:16 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Freewaru
Freawaru wrote:When knowing that one dreams during dream has anybody ever tried to note (in the Mahasi style or otherwise)?


Yes, a number of times I maintained awareness during sleep and meditated the entire night. On one occassion i was travelling home from India after attending the Indian Winter program at my teacher's centre.
Which is different from other occassions where I was experiencing lucid dreaming and during the lucid dream extend awareness to my meditation object.
kind regards

Ben


Cool! :D

Could you please tell more about the difference.

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:26 pm

Freawaru wrote:Hi Manapa,

an interesting question.

So far I have interpreted this aspect ("in sleeping, in waking") of the satipatthana suttas as during all kinds of sleep: dream, deep sleep and those hybrid states like sleep paralysis. One is supposed to keep Clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna) during them all.

Quite a challenge !


The main problem I can see with this interpretation of all types of sleep, is that some sleeping states are unconscious, there are also exceptions in the vinaya for some acts done while sleeping, although not all.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Freawaru
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:18 am

Manapa wrote:
The main problem I can see with this interpretation of all types of sleep, is that some sleeping states are unconscious, there are also exceptions in the vinaya for some acts done while sleeping, although not all.


Yes, but shouldn't it be the goal to be lucid at all times, everywhere, in all states? Our being unconscious, asleep, not knowing, unaware - isn't that the problem in the first place?

I mean, it isn't called "Awakening" or "Enlightenment" for nothing ...

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Ben » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:50 am

Freawaru wrote:Could you please tell more about the difference.


There isnt much more that I can add. One type of experience was when I was conscious while asleep - and I meditated through the night, and the other type of experience was meditating while in a dreaming state where I maintained my meditation object of observing sensations. My teacher encourages students to extend awareness while falling asleep and when waking up during retreats but I'm so exhausted at the end of the retreat day that I just can't manage it. When I have remained aware throughout sleep or meditated within my dream state - it was spontaneous.
I wouldnt read too much into it. I'm still of the firm conviction that one should establish meditative practice on the cushion and if you do that then extending one's awareness into different aspects of daily life or more exotic meditative practices of meditation during sleep will happen in their own time.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

Freawaru
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:50 pm

Hi Ben,

Danke :D

Ben wrote:
Freawaru wrote:Could you please tell more about the difference.


There isnt much more that I can add. One type of experience was when I was conscious while asleep - and I meditated through the night, and the other type of experience was meditating while in a dreaming state where I maintained my meditation object of observing sensations. My teacher encourages students to extend awareness while falling asleep and when waking up during retreats


May I ask who your teacher is? I am very interested in this stuff.

but I'm so exhausted at the end of the retreat day that I just can't manage it.


I usually wake up aware but falling asleep is a different animal. Sometimes I stay aware long enough to observe the hypnogogics and nonsense thoughts but it does not happen consistently and remembering them is more difficult again. Oddly, during dream I become aware (at least in all those I recall anyway) but it is different than the normal dream lucidity. I would like to understand how it developed because I recall that it was not always in this way.

When I have remained aware throughout sleep or meditated within my dream state - it was spontaneous.
I wouldnt read too much into it. I'm still of the firm conviction that one should establish meditative practice on the cushion and if you do that then extending one's awareness into different aspects of daily life or more exotic meditative practices of meditation during sleep will happen in their own time.
kind regards

Ben


No doubt about that. :D

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Re: noting during dream

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:12 pm

Hi Freawaru,
Freawaru wrote:
Ben wrote: My teacher encourages students to extend awareness while falling asleep and when waking up during retreats

May I ask who your teacher is? I am very interested in this stuff.

Ben's teacher is Goenka. However, this advice is common - Mahasi-style teachers give it too.

Mike

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Re: noting during dream

Postby Ben » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:38 pm

Hi Freewaru
Sorry I missed your question.
Yes, as Mike says, my teacher is SN Goenka and again, his instructions on maintaining awareness while going to sleep isn't unique.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

Freawaru
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Re: noting during dream

Postby Freawaru » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:35 am

Hello Mike and Ben,

:thanks:


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