Greetings,
A common literary device of the Pali tradition so as to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching... (I wonder if was another of those fired-up cows )SDC wrote:Later that day he is killed rather gruesomely
Metta,
Retro.
A common literary device of the Pali tradition so as to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching... (I wonder if was another of those fired-up cows )SDC wrote:Later that day he is killed rather gruesomely
Good call, Retro. It most certainly was a cow.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
A common literary device of the Pali tradition so as to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching... (I wonder if was another of those fired-up cows )SDC wrote:Later that day he is killed rather gruesomely
Metta,
Retro.
May I ask how you conclude that such statements are "common literary device[s] ... to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching"?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
A common literary device of the Pali tradition so as to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching... (I wonder if was another of those fired-up cows )SDC wrote:Later that day he is killed rather gruesomely
Metta,
Retro.
The improbable frequency (in sutta and commentary) in which the following scenario occurs...May I ask how you conclude that such statements are "common literary device[s] ... to demonstrate the value and importance of a teaching"?
What kind of literary theory or literary criticism model are you using to come to such a conclusion?
That would be fun...Paññāsikhara wrote: Maybe - in another thread, of course - we could outline the suttas in which such an event occurs, and examine them closer.
Since we never really got back onto the topic of the Hell Officers, I've split these posts off so we've now got a topic about it!mikenz66 wrote:That would be fun...Paññāsikhara wrote: Maybe - in another thread, of course - we could outline the suttas in which such an event occurs, and examine them closer.
Good call. Murderous cows are much more fun than hell officers if you ask me.retrofuturist wrote: Since we never really got back onto the topic of the Hell Officers, I've split these posts off so we've now got a topic about it!
ha! Reminds me of the episode in the Simpsons, where Lisa becomes a vegetarian. The school gives classes from the Meat Council "Meat and You: Partners in Freedom", and it has the line at the end: "Don't kid yourself Jimmy, if a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"mikenz66 wrote:Hi Retro,Good call. Murderous cows are much more fun than hell officers if you ask me.retrofuturist wrote: Since we never really got back onto the topic of the Hell Officers, I've split these posts off so we've now got a topic about it!
Me, read those commentaries?! My Pali isn't that good, I'm afraid.Perhaps our Venerable friend would care to look up the commentaries that I alluded to above that tied together those who perished by the hoof.
Metta
Mike
Cow Wars II: The Bovine Strikes Back!
Hmm, that's disappointing. As I said, two of the cow deaths are, as I understand it, connected in that the victims were spiritual seekers together in a previous life.Paññāsikhara wrote: Me, read those commentaries?! My Pali isn't that good, I'm afraid.
However, they would be very important sources to understand what is going on.
It would be interesting to know if the other cow victim (the leper) I mentioned above was also said by the Commentary to be part of that group.I don't recall all of the details, but from my memory of some of the talks I've heard about these two Suttas the commentaries state that both characters were part of a group who in a previous life were spiritual seekers together. That life ended when they climbed a mountain, discarded their ladders, and vowed to reach enlightenment. Some did, and some didn't and perished (including these two, obviously). At some earlier point in that life (or another?) they angered someone (I forget the details, perhaps they killed his cow, or caused him to be killed by a cow). That person was subsequently reborn as a cow in several lives and "paid them back".
MikeWe read in th Bahiya sutta:
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that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few
sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such
that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and
we may think that this is a relatively simple matter.
In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a), we read in fact about how Bahiya
had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
deeds. He had gone forth under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva
realms with morality completely fulfilled. In fact he had spent one
entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka.
Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an
anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
Great Brahma tells him: You now, though being no arahant, roam about
wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to
views.
Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas,
have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have
attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about
self if they havent reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in
the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of
being used to wanting little, contentment and effacement for a long time
and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and
therefore not experiencing defilements as a result of abandoning in the
form of suppression. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a
result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very
dangerous.
Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta,
it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the
Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha
knew “the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he
will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and
equanimity reasert themselves.
In order for Bahiya to be able to hear and fully comprehend the teachings
from the Buddha, so many different conditions had to be in place,
including the final meeting and listening to the Buddha himself. The
Buddha fully comprehended these conditions and knew the time was ripe for
Bahiya and so entered Savatthi in order that Bahiya would find him.