[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4688: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4690: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4691: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4692: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
Dhamma Wheel • View topic - OMG it's a rebirth thread

OMG it's a rebirth thread

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby christopher::: » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Best Rebirth Thread Ever.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)


:clap:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
christopher:::
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:57 am

Greetings dumb bonbu,

dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou :thanks:


I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings dumb bonbu,

dumb bonbu wrote:beginner's question - i'm slowly making my way through Abhidhamma in Daily Life, where i'm starting to learn about cittas and that no two cittas arise together, rather a citta rises, fades and then another immediately follows. judging by what you've said though Individual, i think my understanding must be wrong somewhere. i believed this process described helps explain rebirth as the ongoing process of cittas arising and fading after rupa has ceased. but if vinnana ceases at death without remainder then this would seem to contradict my understanding of the process being ongoing. can anyone point towards where i'm going wrong? thankyou :thanks:


I think it's more likely that (in the context of Theravada Buddhism) that you are right and that Individual is wrong.

Metta,
Retro. :)


ah, okay i see. many thanks Retro!
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.
MN 21
User avatar
dumb bonbu
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:37 pm
Location: Hull, East Yorkshire

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:even post-mortem continuation implies that something is continuing.

There is continuation, but it's nothing different to the "ongoing process of becoming that is rooted in dependent origination" which you mention in your post. This becoming occurs now and isn't stopped by conventional death. Hence the term (which I started using, even though it's not an actual Theravadin expression per se) 'post-mortem continuation'.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi Retro,

What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"

Best,
Drolma
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:49 am

Greetings Drolma,

Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"


I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.

Apologies if the above terminology is a bit loose. It's not something I tend to focus on in terms of my practice, here-and-now. What I do know from practice here and now is how unremitting craving and becoming is, especially in their subtle forms. They don't "re" but becoming occurs very frequently and much effort and diligence is required to slow and stop it, even temporarily.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,

Drolma wrote:What do you think of "post-mortem becoming?"


I think our kammic tendencies towards becoming are far more resilient than this physical body which will die of its own accord after several decades of use. Unless the fetter of ignorance is destroyed, those mental forces that tend to craving and becoming will, in the form of a gandhabba, condition the arising of consciousness in a new embryo.

Apologies if the above terminology is a bit loose. It's not something I tend to focus on in terms of my practice, here-and-now. What I do know from practice here and now is how unremitting craving and becoming is, especially in their subtle forms. They don't "re" but becoming occurs very frequently and much effort and diligence is required to slow and stop it, even temporarily.

Metta,
Retro. :)


No worries, I understand perfectly what you're saying. Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.

So, then, you like the new phrase I coined! :pig:
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.

The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:02 am

Greetings Individual,

I'd recommend reading what venerable Dhammanando said in the gandhabba thread, if you've not done so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:07 am

Greetings Drolma,

Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.


It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:08 am

Individual wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Continuation of causality, however. Not atta or vinnana. Ayu (vitality) and vinnana (consciousness) cease at death, without remainder.

The final moment of consciousness in this life conditions the first moment of consciousness for another conventional being... like that old analogy about lighting a candle with the light of another candle.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Retrofuturist, there's a problem with that analogy, though: a candle lights another because the flame on one wick connects with the other wick. The final moment of consciousness in this life is located in a completely different place than the consciousness of the next life, sometimes even a completely different realm. Based on this, to maintain consistency with the orderliness of kamma, I've inferred that there seems to be the necessity for an "intermediary state" of some kind. By this, I don't mean necessarily an "intermediary state" of consciousness between death and birth, but a karmic foundation to explicitly connect the previous death with the following birth. And the bardos of Tibetan Buddhism seem to offer clarity on this karmic connection, in my opinion (if I may say so), without really contradicting the Theravadin perspective on rebirth.


Hi Individual,

If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,

Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.


It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:24 am

Greetings Drolma,

Drolma wrote:I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.


And now for the deviation! ;)

The cessation of becoming means "birth has ended" both here in the sense of becoming, and also at the moment of death. So at the inevitable parinibbana, there is no craving or becoming. Without craving or becoming there is no impetus or condition to create a (dare I say, eternalist?) Buddha of the Mahayana conception.

Time for some recommended reading. :reading:

SN 44.6: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then in the evening, Ven. Sariputta emerged from his seclusion and went to Ven. Maha Kotthita and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Maha Kotthita, "Now then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"That, friend, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"Now, friend Kotthita, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

(i. The aggregates)
"For one who loves form, who is fond of form, who cherishes form, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"For one who loves feeling...

"For one who loves perception...

"For one who loves fabrications...

"For one who loves consciousness, who is fond of consciousness, who cherishes consciousness, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love form, who isn't fond of form, who doesn't cherish form, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"For one who doesn't love feeling...

"For one who doesn't love perception...

"For one who doesn't love fabrication...

"For one who doesn't love consciousness, who isn't fond of consciousness, who doesn't cherish consciousness, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This is the cause, this is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(ii. Becoming)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves becoming, who is fond of becoming, who cherishes becoming, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love becoming, who isn't fond of becoming, who doesn't cherish becoming, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(iii. Clinging/sustenance)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves clinging/sustenance, who is fond of clinging/sustenance, who cherishes clinging/sustenance, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love clinging/sustenance, who isn't fond of clinging/sustenance, who doesn't cherish clinging/sustenance, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(iv. Craving)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves craving, who is fond of craving, who cherishes craving, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love craving, who isn't fond of craving, who doesn't cherish craving, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"Now, what more do you want, friend Kotthita? When a monk has been freed from the classification of craving, there exists no cycle for describing him."


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:35 am

Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.

Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Jason » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.


That's a good way of putting it, Retro. Well said.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
User avatar
Jason
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:10 am

Individual wrote:
Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.

Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.


Hi Individual,

No, there's no location property. It's like when you're in the bardo of dreaming. Where are you?

Best wishes,
Drolma :namaste:
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:17 am

Hi Retro,

I read it all, thank you :thumbsup:

What this sutta describes is also the deathlessness attained by the Buddhas of Mahayana. But according to Mahayana, Buddhas may arise out of emptiness out of compassion, even though they've gone beyond.

Note: this is rather tricky and complicated stuff in the area of Mahayana, to start talking about the existance and/or non-existance of enlightened beings.

Is this different from the Theravadan teachings of the nature of Buddhas?

Respectfully,
Drolma
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:28 am

Greetings Drolma,

Yes, much different. As for finding out the Mahayana perspective, I've been asking a few questions of our Mahayana friends at E-Sangha who might well have some insight to provide.

Is The Buddha Considered Eternal, in Mahayana Buddhism?
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=83799

Compare what they say to the Theravadin understanding of the Buddha being genuinely unenlightened prior to becoming enlightened under the Bodhi tree at the age of 35. His years of asceticism were very real and not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of harsh asceticism. His years of sensuous delights in the Palace were very real, not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of sensual pleasures. As for what happened after his death, see the above sutta.

This is all of course all light-years away from a Dharmakaya/Nirmanakaya perspective on things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,

Yes, much different. As for finding out the Mahayana perspective, I've been asking a few questions of our Mahayana friends at E-Sangha who might well have some insight to provide.

Is The Buddha Considered Eternal, in Mahayana Buddhism?
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=83799

Compare what they say to the Theravadin understanding of the Buddha being genuinely unenlightened prior to becoming enlightened under the Bodhi tree at the age of 35. His years of asceticism were very real and not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of harsh asceticism. His years of sensuous delights in the Palace were very real, not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of sensual pleasures. As for what happened after his death, see the above sutta.

This is all of course all light-years away from a Dharmakaya/Nirmanakaya perspective on things.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Yes, nirma kaya is vastly different.

I have a fancy for the words expedient means though (instead of ruse) :guns: :guns:

Haha I am just teasing you. I'm enjoying this exchange immensely. Thanks for your patience in Mahayana matters. If I don't bring some sort of understanding to the table for dialogue, well, I'd be nowhere.

Best wishes,
Drolma
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby davcuts » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:57 am

If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.


Drolma,

I thought in Theravada rebirth happens instantly after death. Is that not correct? If this is the case there does seem to be a conflict. I have been taught we can dwell in the bardo up to seven weeks after death.

If there is no belief in the bardo in Theravada Buddhism, then how long do they believe rebirth takes after the mind leaves the body? Everyone feel free to answer.

Thanks,
David
davcuts
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:03 am
Location: Asheville, North Carolina

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:05 am

Hi David!

We can be in the bardo for up to 49 days human-time. Or we can be there for a nano-second human-time.
But bear in mind that this is described in earth-time, not dead-person-time.

I believe that in Theravada rebirth in instantaneous.

Best,
Drolma :heart:
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Discovering Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests