Debating the Buddha

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
seanpdx
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Re: Debating the Buddha

Post by seanpdx »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

In the Sutta Pitaka we see the Buddha having many debates with ascetics and wanderers from other spiritual traditions. Accordingly, the debates and their outcomes are always presented from the Buddhist perspective.

Did any other spiritual traditions keep their own records of debates that took place between their own spritual leaders and the Buddha and his disciples?

If so, do you have any examples you could share?
From what I've read, there are no recorded conversations between the Buddha and Mahavira. Furthermore, there are no recorded discussions in (early?) jain literature with the Buddha. There apparently are, however, discussions recorded in jain literature with disciples of the Buddha.

As far as "contemporary" records go, the jains would be the only legitimate source to the best of my knowledge. Bronkhorst may have some info on this, as well as Gombrich (mentioned previously). I can peruse some of my sources when I get a bit more time if you like, if nobody beats me to it.
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Kare
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Re: Debating the Buddha

Post by Kare »

This has maybe only an indirect relevance to the question, but there is a Jain text, Paesi-kahanayam, which has many similarities with the Payasi-sutta (DN 23). This is a debate on the soul, and it is one of the most entertaining texts in the DN. The text of the Buddhist sutta is a dialogue between the Buddhist monk, Kumara-Kassapa, and governor Payasi. The commentary says it took place some time after the death of the Buddha. One interesting point is that Indian names often have a meaning. In Pali the name Payasi has no clear meaning. But in the Jain text the same person is called Paesi. In Ardha-Magadhi, the language of the Jain text, the name Paesi can easily be seen as Sanskrit Pradeshin, which means "District Governor" - which is what Paesi/Payasi was. Therefore the story may originally be a Jain story, written in Ardha-Magadhi. Some Buddhist editor then may have borrowed the story, making some changes to make it Buddhist, and just transferred the name Paesi into Pali > Payasi. If the original had been in Pali, we might have expected the name to be Pradeshin > Padesi. Therefore, this text may be evidence of borrowing and cross-influences between the different religious schools in ancient India.

As mentioned, the Payasi-sutta is an entertaining text with many interesting parables. In the debate the Buddhist monk argues strongly in favor of the existence of a soul (and of course he wins the debate), and this may also be an indication to an 'external', non-Buddhist, origin of the sutta.
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pt1
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Re: Debating the Buddha

Post by pt1 »

appicchato wrote:
pt1 wrote:...the Buddha, Sariputta and others were arguing from a Mahayana point of view...
?...
Hi Bhante, I guess I didn't explain this properly - my impression on reading the discussion was that the argument between a Jain and Sariputta/Buddha was based on Mahayana buddhism terminology and understanding, and so had very little to do with Theravada. Whether that means that the discussion recorded in Jain texts was much later than the time of the Buddha, or that it was just a historically inaccurate Jain story, I don't know. I tried looking for that e-sangha thread on Wayback machine, but no luck.

Best wishes
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Goofaholix
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Re: Debating the Buddha

Post by Goofaholix »

I don't know the answer to the OP's question but with all these posts about how the Buddha beat the opposition surely the point of each these debates is the teaching that that they illustrate, not who ended up the winner and who ended up the loser.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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