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Suicide and rebirth - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Suicide and rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nowheat
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby nowheat » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:03 pm


nowheat
Posts: 529
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby nowheat » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:07 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:08 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:15 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

nowheat
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby nowheat » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:26 pm


nowheat
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby nowheat » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:39 pm

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I've got several tabs open with your links and am working on reading them all.

It seems as though the Buddha himself did not take a strong stand against a person choosing to commit suicide, but did against others encouraging it. Perhaps they looked on suicide as we do in these times, as most often a failure of social connections and support, but an individual in continuous agony with no reasonable hope of relief would have the option to consider euthanasia.

I wonder, though, why it did not become a common practice for arahants to hasten final nibbana, if there was no karmic consequence.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:45 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:11 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:03 am

Hi Retro
It was a master stroke of yours to quote some of my favourite latter-day authors in debate. Thanks for the opportunity to hone my understanding.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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acinteyyo
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:20 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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acinteyyo
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:37 pm

Last edited by acinteyyo on Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

meindzai
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby meindzai » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:08 pm

My understanding was that the Buddha permitted suicide in some rare (maybe 2, and I don't have a reference) circumstances where the following conditions applied

1) They were arahants
2) Their illness was such that their bodily existence was no longer any use to anybody. Essentially the "reason to live" for an arahant is to teach others. They do not live for the sake of themselves at that point.

Whether this story is true or not, this is the only case I could see such a thing being permitted.

As for the pain vs. suffering, I don't think it's possible for any of us to conceive how an arahant perceives physical pain or pleasure. For us it's all just talk and theory. The Buddha had a lot of back pain during his later years and would often lie down to give sermons or let someone else do it. This is the same guy who before his enlightenment did such harsh asceticism that he could touch his stomach by touching his back (and vice versa). But now he clearly understands that sitting up with back pain isn't doing anybody any good. Similarly I can see how a used up and worn out body can be disposed of by an Arahant that doesn't see it as "I" or "mine." Just seems crazy to us.

-M

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Ben
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby Ben » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:31 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

nowheat
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 am

Re: Suicide and rebirth specifically Channa's

Postby nowheat » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:25 am

So is the conclusion here that there is no actual consensus on why the Buddha agreed that Channa was blameless? Theories are that he was already an arahant, or that he became an arahant at some point in the process of killing himself?

:namaste:

Paññāsikhara
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:35 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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acinteyyo
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:57 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Suicide and rebirth specifically Channa's

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:23 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:35 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: Suicide and rebirth

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:00 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.


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