OMG it's a rebirth thread

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:Rebirth (or post-mortem continuation or post-mortem becoming) is taught pretty much the same way in my tradition. The only difference I can see is that the focus is more on purification than cessation in TB, and we say "subtle body" instead of gandhabba, but I think it's the same.
It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Drolma,
Drolma wrote:I see Retro. This is indeed encouraging.
And now for the deviation! ;)

The cessation of becoming means "birth has ended" both here in the sense of becoming, and also at the moment of death. So at the inevitable parinibbana, there is no craving or becoming. Without craving or becoming there is no impetus or condition to create a (dare I say, eternalist?) Buddha of the Mahayana conception.

Time for some recommended reading. :reading:

SN 44.6: Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then in the evening, Ven. Sariputta emerged from his seclusion and went to Ven. Maha Kotthita and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Maha Kotthita, "Now then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"That, friend, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"Now, friend Kotthita, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

(i. The aggregates)
"For one who loves form, who is fond of form, who cherishes form, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"For one who loves feeling...

"For one who loves perception...

"For one who loves fabrications...

"For one who loves consciousness, who is fond of consciousness, who cherishes consciousness, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love form, who isn't fond of form, who doesn't cherish form, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of form, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"For one who doesn't love feeling...

"For one who doesn't love perception...

"For one who doesn't love fabrication...

"For one who doesn't love consciousness, who isn't fond of consciousness, who doesn't cherish consciousness, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of consciousness, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This is the cause, this is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(ii. Becoming)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves becoming, who is fond of becoming, who cherishes becoming, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love becoming, who isn't fond of becoming, who doesn't cherish becoming, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of becoming, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(iii. Clinging/sustenance)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves clinging/sustenance, who is fond of clinging/sustenance, who cherishes clinging/sustenance, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love clinging/sustenance, who isn't fond of clinging/sustenance, who doesn't cherish clinging/sustenance, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

(iv. Craving)
"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"There would, my friend. "For one who loves craving, who is fond of craving, who cherishes craving, who does not know or see, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, there occurs the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'

"But for one who doesn't love craving, who isn't fond of craving, who doesn't cherish craving, who knows & sees, as it actually is present, the cessation of craving, the thought, 'The Tathagata exists after death' or 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' doesn't occur.

"This, too, is a line of reasoning in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

"But, my friend, would there another line of reasoning, in line with which that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"Now, what more do you want, friend Kotthita? When a monk has been freed from the classification of craving, there exists no cycle for describing him."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Individual »

Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.
Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Jason »

retrofuturist wrote:It's worth remembering though that cessation (nirodha) refers to the cessation or extinguishment of becoming... not to some kind of physical and/or mental disintegration. When the is no 'becoming' there can be no association with death, hence terms to explain nibbana like 'the deathless', 'unbinding', the 'unconditioned', the 'unproduced'. Purification and cessation may not therefore be as far away as you may think.
That's a good way of putting it, Retro. Well said.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Individual wrote:
Drolma wrote:If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.
Not a "place", of course, because "location" is a property of this bardo. Right? Being another state of mind, though, it could be compared to a place.
Hi Individual,

No, there's no location property. It's like when you're in the bardo of dreaming. Where are you?

Best wishes,
Drolma :namaste:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Retro,

I read it all, thank you :thumbsup:

What this sutta describes is also the deathlessness attained by the Buddhas of Mahayana. But according to Mahayana, Buddhas may arise out of emptiness out of compassion, even though they've gone beyond.

Note: this is rather tricky and complicated stuff in the area of Mahayana, to start talking about the existance and/or non-existance of enlightened beings.

Is this different from the Theravadan teachings of the nature of Buddhas?

Respectfully,
Drolma
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Drolma,

Yes, much different. As for finding out the Mahayana perspective, I've been asking a few questions of our Mahayana friends at E-Sangha who might well have some insight to provide.

Is The Buddha Considered Eternal, in Mahayana Buddhism?
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=83799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Compare what they say to the Theravadin understanding of the Buddha being genuinely unenlightened prior to becoming enlightened under the Bodhi tree at the age of 35. His years of asceticism were very real and not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of harsh asceticism. His years of sensuous delights in the Palace were very real, not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of sensual pleasures. As for what happened after his death, see the above sutta.

This is all of course all light-years away from a Dharmakaya/Nirmanakaya perspective on things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Drolma,

Yes, much different. As for finding out the Mahayana perspective, I've been asking a few questions of our Mahayana friends at E-Sangha who might well have some insight to provide.

Is The Buddha Considered Eternal, in Mahayana Buddhism?
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=83799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Compare what they say to the Theravadin understanding of the Buddha being genuinely unenlightened prior to becoming enlightened under the Bodhi tree at the age of 35. His years of asceticism were very real and not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of harsh asceticism. His years of sensuous delights in the Palace were very real, not just an elaborate ruse to demonstrate the futility of sensual pleasures. As for what happened after his death, see the above sutta.

This is all of course all light-years away from a Dharmakaya/Nirmanakaya perspective on things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, nirma kaya is vastly different.

I have a fancy for the words expedient means though (instead of ruse) :guns: :guns:

Haha I am just teasing you. I'm enjoying this exchange immensely. Thanks for your patience in Mahayana matters. If I don't bring some sort of understanding to the table for dialogue, well, I'd be nowhere.

Best wishes,
Drolma
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by davcuts »

If you listen closely to TB Venerables and read the teachings carefully, they speak of "birth" in the bardo. The bardo thodol is another state of mind of course, not a place. This birth could also be stated as "becoming" in the bardo state. So it's not in conflict with the Theravadan approach as far as I can tell. The intermediary state and subtle body must arise simultaneously with the other two aformentioned factors for conception to occur.
Drolma,

I thought in Theravada rebirth happens instantly after death. Is that not correct? If this is the case there does seem to be a conflict. I have been taught we can dwell in the bardo up to seven weeks after death.

If there is no belief in the bardo in Theravada Buddhism, then how long do they believe rebirth takes after the mind leaves the body? Everyone feel free to answer.

Thanks,
David
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi David!

We can be in the bardo for up to 49 days human-time. Or we can be there for a nano-second human-time.
But bear in mind that this is described in earth-time, not dead-person-time.

I believe that in Theravada rebirth in instantaneous.

Best,
Drolma :heart:
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

"Even in the Theravada collection of Suttas, there is a small but substantial body of evidence to support the idea of such a between-lives state, with the gandhabba as a kind of mutable, restless 'spirit' seeking out a new rebirth to 'fall' into" (Harvey, 1995: 98-108).

(pages 105 to 108 in this preview of The Selfless Mind by Brian Peter Harvey).
The Ghandabba Spirit-Being of the Intermediary Existence
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=rcN ... #PPA104,M1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
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Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Chris that was a wonderful read, thank you!

:namaste:
Element

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Element »

clw_uk wrote: One problem i find though with explanations of continuation is the "rebirth" linking consciousness. Isnt consciounsness dependent on Name and Form so i find it hard to see how a rebirth linking consciouness could exsist because it would need name and form which would mean that name and form get taken into another existence after physical death?

Anyone who could clear this up for me i would be very grateful :namaste:
Hi Craig

In the suttas, there are only six types of consciousness. Further, the word consciousness comes from the Pali 'vinnana', which means 'direct knowing'. Thus consciousness implies 'cognition' or 'knowing', namely via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind. Also, as you said, consciousness required body-mind to function. Buddha said in MN 38, without a sense organ, there is no arising of consciousness.

With metta

Element
Element

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Element »

Drolma wrote:...the skandhas are purely conditioned out of craving.

This is what I think, please feel free to correct me, everyone.
Drolma

You know I am always happy to correct you.

Buddha had no craving but still had khandas.

Khandas arise from the elements.

With metta

E
Element

Re: OMG it's a rebirth thread

Post by Element »

retrofuturist wrote:There is a physical base for consciousness, but the physical base of consciousness is subject to impermanence (aniccata) too. If we accept that consciousness is not itself physical, yet that it is dependent on the physical, we can also accept that consciousness needn't be constrained by the laws of the physical universe.
I do not recall Buddha did not teach like this. Buddha said consciousness was dependent on a sense organ. However, the element of consciousness can transfer from life to life via the genetic programming with sperm and ovum. Buddha said gandhabba were fragrances in flowers. These are the same as reproductive seeds, delivered by the birds & the bees. Given they have within them the power to generate or create life, they are 'gods'.

With metta

Element
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