Hello All,
Another thread made me wonder, what are the Theravada and/or Mahayana views on someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship. Is this mentioned at all in the Suttas of either tradition?
With Metta,
Guy
Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
- retrofuturist
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Greetings,
If you do that in Vajrayana, supposedly you end up in Vajra Hell.
Metta,
Retro.
If you do that in Vajrayana, supposedly you end up in Vajra Hell.
http://www.khandro.net/TibBud%20_vajrayana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Tantric Buddhists are in the position of a snake inside a bamboo tube; one hole faces up to the Dharmakaya, the other down toward Vajra Hell. There are only two options -- up or down; no in-between. Keeping samaya (commitment) determines which way the snake slides.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
I don't know about suttas, but an interesting passage from Ajhan Mun's bio goes:Guy wrote:Hello All,
Another thread made me wonder, what are the Theravada and/or Mahayana views on someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship. Is this mentioned at all in the Suttas of either tradition?
With Metta,
Guy
That bio is avialable at:Ãcariya Mun related that in ages past he had made a similar resolution
– in his case, a solemn vow to become a Buddha. As with Ãcariya
Sao, intensifying his efforts at meditation caused Ãcariya Mun to recollect
this long-standing intention, and this underlying attachment made
him reluctant to strive for the attainment of Nibbãna in his present life.
Ãcariya Mun renounced his vow to be a Buddha only after he began
practicing dhutanga kammaååhãna, for he then realized that its fulfillment
would take far too long. It required eons of traversing the round
of saÿsãra: being born, growing old, becoming ill, and dying over and
over again, enduring misery and pain indefinitely.
Renouncing the original vow relieved Ãcariya Mun of this concern,
opening the way for his meditation to progress smoothly. The fact that
he could so easily abandon the original vow indicates that it was not yet
so firmly fixed in his conscious being that he couldn’t detach himself
from it.
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/books.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But be warned -- it is long, and fantastical, and fantastic too (IMO).
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
I guess the intention (as always) would be crucial. What do you actually mean by these words, Guy? What exactly is being renounced?Guy wrote:Hello All,
Another thread made me wonder, what are the Theravada and/or Mahayana views on someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship. Is this mentioned at all in the Suttas of either tradition?
With Metta,
Guy
As for sutric references I can't think of any specifically on this topic. There is a lot of stuff contrasting the merits of a Bodhisattva with those of Arahat.
_/|\_
_/|\_
- tiltbillings
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Since the idea of a bodhisatta vow is something that was developed after the death of the Buddha (before the rise of the Mahayana), the Pali suttas do not mention the "bodhisatta vow." Within the Pali tradition (not the suttas) and likely in common with other Mainstream schools (before the rise of the Mahayana) one vowed to be come a sammasambuddha at the feet of a living Buddha, being only a step away from becoming an arahant. Later Theravadin commentaries developed a variation to accomadate those who would want to follow this path but did not have access to a living Buddha.Guy wrote:Hello All,
Another thread made me wonder, what are the Theravada and/or Mahayana views on someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship. Is this mentioned at all in the Suttas of either tradition?
With Metta,
Guy
I rather doubt that there was a concern within the Theravada for giving up the vow. That seems to have arisen with the radical change broutht about by the Mahayana (and the Vajrayana) to the idea of beconing a bodhisattva. Give-up-the-vow-and-you-are-going-to-hell is hard to take seriously, but then I do not take the idea of a bodhisattva vow very seriously, either. If it were an actual path of practice, the Buddha would have taught it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Maybe he did teach it...
Whether the apocryphal Jataka takes or many examples of the Buddha's life, he certainly embodied compassion and concern for others. This seems to be a far cry from the stereotypical modern Theravada monk described by Ven Dhammika for example.
After all the practical significance of the vows is to set a selfless course from the outset. At least that's what I understand and this appears to be largely the justification for their historical importance - monks were becoming too arrogant and self-centered (according to Mahayana texts promoting the path of the Bodhisattva).
But I might be getting it all wrong... (wouldn't be the first time)
_/|\_
Whether the apocryphal Jataka takes or many examples of the Buddha's life, he certainly embodied compassion and concern for others. This seems to be a far cry from the stereotypical modern Theravada monk described by Ven Dhammika for example.
After all the practical significance of the vows is to set a selfless course from the outset. At least that's what I understand and this appears to be largely the justification for their historical importance - monks were becoming too arrogant and self-centered (according to Mahayana texts promoting the path of the Bodhisattva).
But I might be getting it all wrong... (wouldn't be the first time)
_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Even in late commentarial Theravada literature, there are three "bodhisatta paths", one towards savaka-bodhi, one for paccekabuddha-bodhi, and another for sammasambuddha-bodhi.
Also, in Theravada literature from beginning to end, the term "arahat" is used to describe any of these three, eg. the sammasambuddha is also an arhat.
So, we may wish to clarify questions like "someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship". Technically, without specifying which type of bodhisatta or which type of arahant, this is a flat out contradiction! ie. all liberated beings are arahants, and all of them practiced some form of bodhisatta path.
Also, in Theravada literature from beginning to end, the term "arahat" is used to describe any of these three, eg. the sammasambuddha is also an arhat.
So, we may wish to clarify questions like "someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship". Technically, without specifying which type of bodhisatta or which type of arahant, this is a flat out contradiction! ie. all liberated beings are arahants, and all of them practiced some form of bodhisatta path.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
I have taught the Dhamma without an inner or an outer version. The Tathagata has no closed fist with regard to teachings. — DN 16. No bodhisatta path to be found taught by the Buddha in the suttas or Vinaya. It is a later development.Dan74 wrote:Maybe he did teach it...
Huh? Ven Dhammika? the stereotypical modern Theravada monk described by Ven Dhammika And he is a reliable source? Mahayana monks are super-duper compassionate, but the "typical" Theravadin monk is not? I think there might be some problems with that. So the typical Theravadin monks and nuns, according to one critic, are hardly exemplars, but can we say that the "typical" Mahayana monks/nuns live up to the ideal fully - right?Whether the apocryphal Jataka takes or many examples of the Buddha's life, he certainly embodied compassion and concern for others. This seems to be a far cry from the stereotypical modern Theravada monk described by Ven Dhammika for example.
The problem is that selfishness is going to be part of one's course until there is an actual insight into the nature of the self. Also, implied in the this that Theravadins are selfish in their motivation, but Mahayanists are not. One cannot selfishly opt for a "selfless" practice to show how wonder one is?After all the practical significance of the vows is to set a selfless course from the outset.
But then, of course, without individual concern, concern for others is not too terribly meaningful. It is worth noting that the above is a reflection of what can be found in a more expansive earlier Pali texts where we find the Buddha stating:In Shantideva's compendium of Mahayana thought, the "Sikshasammuccaya," we find quoted from the Mayahana Ayrya-Sagaramati Sutra:
"There is another rule that can serve as the epitome of Mahayana: 'By taking care to avoid stumbling oneself, one will protect all beings.'"
And he quotes from the Bodhisattva-Pratimoksa:
"If, O Sariputra, one wishes to protect others, one should protect oneself."
"'I shall protect myself,' in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. 'I shall protect others,' in that way the foundations of mindfulness should be practiced. Protecting oneself one protects others; protecting others one protects oneself. And how does one, in protecting oneself, protect others? By the repeated and frequent practice of meditation. And how does one, in protecting others, protect oneself? By patience and forbearance, by a non-violent and harmless life, by compassion and loving kindness." -- S 52,8
And Mahayana monks were never too arrogant and self centered. The problem is that early Mahayana, once it introduced the us-versus-them ugly word hinayana and it baggage, it became in many ways an oppositional teaching: We are more compassionate (look at our bodhisattva ideal ((they developed))), we are have more wisdom, our Buddha is wiser, more powerful, our path of practice is deeper, better, etc, etc.At least that's what I understand and this appears to be largely the justification for their historical importance - monks were becoming too arrogant and self-centered (according to Mahayana texts promoting the path of the Bodhisattva).
The bodhisattva ideal can be a basis of motivation for practice, but it does have its pit falls.
Digha Nikaya 28, Sampasadaniya Sutta:
Sariputta states: All those Arahant Buddhas [arahanto sammasambuddha] of the past attained to sambodhi by abandoning the five hindrances, defilements of the mind which weaken understanding, having firmly established the four foundations of mindfulness, and realized the seven factors of awakening as they really are. All the Arahant Buddhas of the future will do likewise, and you, Lord, who are now the Arahant, fully-awakened Buddha, have done the same.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
I have a question. What causes someone to choose the Paccekabuddha path? What does one gain by striving to be a Paccekabuddha if the end result of Nibbana is the same as if one had pursued the path to arahantship?
metta
Jack
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Tilt you make some points that I will have to return to later after some thought and research. As regards contrasting Theravada and Mahayana monks, this was neither explicitly nor implicitly in what I wrote. Mahayana monks have their share of issues and challenges, no doubt.
That a certain deep kind of selfishness has crept in is evident not just through Ven Dhammika's criticism and not just in Theravada, but through many signs. Heard of many Buddhists NGO's? Quakers, that tiny little group is responsible for setting up Greenpeace, Amnesty International and countless relief initiatives worldwide. What have we done? "Engaged Buddhism" is a kind of an oxymoron, isnt it, in spite of good Thay's trying.
My point above was to show that a strong intention (Bodhisattva vow) was intended to set a positive direction. To what extent this has succeeded and whether as a result Mahayana monks are more selfless than Theravada monks, not only I don't know, I would even touch that!
I know I value the vows and they are meaningful to me. That's all (after all the unnecessary speculation is swept aside).
_/|\_
That a certain deep kind of selfishness has crept in is evident not just through Ven Dhammika's criticism and not just in Theravada, but through many signs. Heard of many Buddhists NGO's? Quakers, that tiny little group is responsible for setting up Greenpeace, Amnesty International and countless relief initiatives worldwide. What have we done? "Engaged Buddhism" is a kind of an oxymoron, isnt it, in spite of good Thay's trying.
My point above was to show that a strong intention (Bodhisattva vow) was intended to set a positive direction. To what extent this has succeeded and whether as a result Mahayana monks are more selfless than Theravada monks, not only I don't know, I would even touch that!
I know I value the vows and they are meaningful to me. That's all (after all the unnecessary speculation is swept aside).
_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
BlackBird wrote:I have a question. What causes someone to choose the Paccekabuddha path? What does one gain by striving to be a Paccekabuddha if the end result of Nibbana is the same as if one had pursued the path to arahantship?
metta
Jack
Ven Nyanatiloka may not be totally correct in the second to last sentence. There does seem to be some suggestion in the commentaries, following the later story - not found in the suttas - of Sumedha (on the verge of becoming an arahant) vowing before the Buddha Dipankara, that one might be able to follow suit. The Buddha, however, never taught this a a way of practice. One does not vow to be a Paccekabuddha; it happens as result of one's practice.bodhi
(from verbal root budhi, to awaken, to understand): awakenment, enlightenment, supreme knowledge. "(Through Bodhi) one awakens from the slumber or stupor (inflicted upon the mind) by the defilements (kilesa) and comprehends the Four Noble Truths (sacca)" (Com. to M. 10).
The enlightenment of a Buddha is called sammā-sambodhi, 'perfect enlightenment'. The faith (saddhā) of a lay follower of the Buddha is described as "he believes in the enlightenment of the Perfect One" (saddahati Tathāgatassa bodhim: M.53, A.III.2).
As components of the state of enlightenment and contributory factors to its achievement, are mentioned in the texts: the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga = bodhi-anga) and the 37 'things pertaining to enlightenment' (bodhipakkhiya-dhammā). In one of the later books of the Sutta-Pitaka, the Buddhavamsa, 10 bodhipācana-dhammā are mentioned, i.e. qualities that lead to the ripening of perfect enlightenment; these are the 10 perfections (pāramī).
There is a threefold classification of enlightenment:
1. that of a noble disciple (sāvaka-bodhi, q.v.). i.e. of an Arahat,
2. of an Independently Enlightened One (pacceka-bodhi, q.v.), and
3. of a Perfect Enlightened One (sammā-sambodhi).
This 3-fold division, however, is of later origin, and in this form it neither occurs in the canonical texts nor in the older Sutta commentaries. The closest approximation to it is found in a verse sutta which is probably of a comparatively later period, the Treasure Store Sutta (Nidhikkanda Sutta) of the Khuddakapātha, where the following 3 terms are mentioned in stanza 15: sāvaka-pāramī, pacceka-bodhi, buddha-bhūmi (see Khp. Tr., pp. 247f.).
The commentaries (e.g. to M., Buddhavamsa, Cariyapitaka) generally give a 4-fold explanation of the word bodhi:
1. the tree of enlightenment,
2. the holy path (ariya-magga),
3. Nibbāna,
4 omniscience (of the Buddha: sabbaññutā-ñāna).
As to (2), the commentaries quote Cula-Nidesa where bodhi is defined as the knowledge relating to the 4 paths (of Stream-entry, etc.; catūsu maggesu ñāna).
Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bodhi.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Greetings Dan,
Metta,
Retro.
Only if you get entangled in the world (and it adds to cravings, aversion and such)... otherwise it's a good outlet for lovingkindness and compassion.Dan74 wrote:"Engaged Buddhism" is a kind of an oxymoron, isnt it
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Going further and further off topic:Dan74 wrote:
That a certain deep kind of selfishness has crept in is evident not just through Ven Dhammika's criticism and not just in Theravada, but through many signs. Heard of many Buddhists NGO's? Quakers, that tiny little group is responsible for setting up Greenpeace, Amnesty International and countless relief initiatives worldwide. What have we done? "Engaged Buddhism" is a kind of an oxymoron, isnt it, in spite of good Thay's trying.
The organization called Buddha Light International Association (BLIA) is registered as an NGO in Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) of the United Nations, as of 2003. See:
http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/asp/fo ... NGOID=3087" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ven Naht Hanh got a lot of his ideas about (what later got translated into English as) "Engaged Buddhism" from a particular scholar monk in Taiwan, Yinshun.
Yinshun is the doctrinal force behind the very powerful modern Buddhist force in Taiwan known as "renjian fojiao" (人間佛教), translated (not very well in my books) as "Humanistic Buddhism".
The BLIA is the lay wing of Foguang Shan monastery, probably the largest of the groups propouding Humanistic Buddhism.
The organization Compassionate Relief (Tsu Chi = 慈濟 Ciji) led by Ven Cheng Yen, is also part of this movement, as is Dharma Drum. You will often find members of Compassionate Relief as they first people to respond to any number of major and minor disasters worldwide, eg. recent earthquakes, etc.
Buddhism outside of Asia is relatively young. It first needs to get some other things in order before it will ever become a large social force. However, in the meantime, there are plenty of such great Buddhist groups in action in Asia. (Not disparaging his marvellous efforts, Ven Naht Hanh and Plum Village, etc. is a very tiny group in comparison.)
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
I hope so, Venerable!
I recall the Dalai Lama drawing attention to this problem. He said that instead of a new temple in Dharamsala, they should build more hospitals and schools. But I guess the rich get more merits from building a temple.
I know human nature is what it is, but I see an institutional problem here (maybe wrongly).
As for the Vows, your last point is well-worth repeating:
_/|\_
Of course I meant it not as a principle but as a social reality...
_/|\_
I recall the Dalai Lama drawing attention to this problem. He said that instead of a new temple in Dharamsala, they should build more hospitals and schools. But I guess the rich get more merits from building a temple.
I know human nature is what it is, but I see an institutional problem here (maybe wrongly).
As for the Vows, your last point is well-worth repeating:
and hopefully there will be some clarity forthcoming as to what people understand by these terms, otherwise the discussion cannot progress.all liberated beings are arahants, and all of them practiced some form of bodhisatta path
_/|\_
Quite so!retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,
Only if you get entangled in the world (and it adds to cravings, aversion and such)... otherwise it's a good outlet for lovingkindness and compassion.Dan74 wrote:"Engaged Buddhism" is a kind of an oxymoron, isnt it
Metta,
Retro.
Of course I meant it not as a principle but as a social reality...
_/|\_
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows
Hi Venerable and Dan,
With Metta,
Guy
Paññāsikhara wrote:Even in late commentarial Theravada literature, there are three "bodhisatta paths", one towards savaka-bodhi, one for paccekabuddha-bodhi, and another for sammasambuddha-bodhi.
Also, in Theravada literature from beginning to end, the term "arahat" is used to describe any of these three, eg. the sammasambuddha is also an arhat.
So, we may wish to clarify questions like "someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship". Technically, without specifying which type of bodhisatta or which type of arahant, this is a flat out contradiction! ie. all liberated beings are arahants, and all of them practiced some form of bodhisatta path.
To clarify - What I mean is a hypothetical situation where someone vows to be a Bodhisatta with the intention of perfecting the Ten Paramis to become a SammaSamBuddha sometime in the future but then (at a later time, perhaps many lifetimes later) they decide that they would rather not endure so much suffering and instead decide to pursue the path of Arahantship in this very life to end suffering ASAP in a time when the Teachings of a SammaSamBuddha are already alive and well in the world.Dan74 wrote:I guess the intention (as always) would be crucial. What do you actually mean by these words, Guy? What exactly is being renounced?
With Metta,
Guy
Four types of letting go:
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm
1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things
- Ajahn Brahm