Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by tiltbillings »

Guy wrote:
To clarify - What I mean is a hypothetical situation where someone vows to be a Bodhisatta with the intention of perfecting the Ten Paramis to become a SammaSamBuddha sometime in the future but then (at a later time, perhaps many lifetimes later) they decide that they would rather not endure so much suffering and instead decide to pursue the path of Arahantship in this very life to end suffering ASAP in a time when the Teachings of a SammaSamBuddha are already alive and well in the world.

With Metta,

Guy
From a Theravadin standpoint this is not an issue. From a Mahayana standpoint - generally - it is really a meaningless thing to do, given that according to some Mahayanists the arhats end up in a sort of "fake" nibbana, thinking they have attained what needs to be attained. Somewhere down the line they sort of wake up to the fact that they need to recognize that their supposed awakening really is not what they thought and that they need to get on with being bodhisattvas.

Accoring to the lengthy discussions of this question I have seen elsewhere, forsaking the Mahayana bodhisattva vow is likely to be seen as big bad news with big bad consequences, which are even worse if you are a Vajrayana practitioner.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Dan74 »

This hypothetical doesn't quite make sense to me, because I see these vows as actually beneficial for practice and realization, since they strike at the root of attachment to the self and its priorities (eg "getting rid of suffering"). It's a kind of a paradox I've also heard from Thai Forest teachers - embracing suffering, one puts an end to it. Letting go of one's concern for liberation in favour of the liberation of everybody else, one brings it closer.

As for delaying nirvana, this interpretation of the vows is just one interpretation, and one that doesn't completely make sense to me (and is also rejected by most Vajrayana people).

Then on the other hand I've heard a teacher share that in the course of meditation the vow came back and barred the entry (or rather the exit), so to speak. So it varies.

[Edit: If you make explicit vows to keep getting reborn in order to be of assistance to other beings, well in order to pull all that off I imagine you'd already have to be very close to Buddhahood, but I wouldn't like to speculate on the actual workings of all that).]

I've done some work in prisons and my wife works with people with disabilities, so this amazing good fortune that we have is something I don't want to take for granted. Striving just for my own sake strikes me as kind of insensitive and even a bit pointless (I am an extrovert). This is the meaning of the Vows for me (No, Tilt, I am not saying Theravada practitioners practice only for themselves (I have no idea of other people's motivation), I am just talking about my practice :group: )

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Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

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Dan74 wrote: Striving for my own sake strikes me as kind of insensitive and even a bit pointless. This is the meaning of the Vows for me (No, Tilt, I am not saying Theravada practitioners practice only for themselves, I am just talking about my practice ::peace::)
As for striving for one's self, if, from a Theravadin point of view, you areteally doing the practice, "striving for one's self makes no sense, though there is the recognition that "self" cultivation is necessary: "Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.
"It is not possible, Cunda, that one who is himself not restrained, not disciplined and not quenched [as to his passions], should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions]. But it is possible, Cunda, that one who is himself restrained, disciplined and fully quenched [as to his passions] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions].
-- Majjhima Nikaya 8

By doing evil, one defiles oneself;
by avoiding evil, one purifies oneself.
Purity and impurity depend on oneself:
no one can purify another.
Dhp 165
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Dan74 »

Yes, of course.
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Sanghamitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

If you do that in Vajrayana, supposedly you end up in Vajra Hell.
Tantric Buddhists are in the position of a snake inside a bamboo tube; one hole faces up to the Dharmakaya, the other down toward Vajra Hell. There are only two options -- up or down; no in-between. Keeping samaya (commitment) determines which way the snake slides.
http://www.khandro.net/TibBud%20_vajrayana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Seems reasonable... :coffee: :(
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Heavenstorm
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Heavenstorm »

Guy wrote:Another thread made me wonder, what are the Theravada and/or Mahayana views on someone who renounces the path of a Bodhisatta in order to practice for Arahantship. Is this mentioned at all in the Suttas of either tradition?
Simple answer, in Theravada, there is no big doubt as one could still become an Arahant although there are stories that the ex Bodhisattas' partners (or spouses) in their previous lives will appear and disturb them for backtracking on their original commitment.

In Mahayana, things are more serious because one have taken on additional vows. And when you break a vow, there are always negative consequences. Therefore, the more vows one have, the greater is the penalty if one backtrack on them.

However, there are a few exceptions. In some rare cases, whereby an inspired Bodhisattva undergo rebirth and forgets about his original vows in the previous life before taking on a Buddhist practice and enter the stream. He will not face any serious penalty since he does not break his vows consciously but do so due to ignorance and lack of accumulated aspiration. (Still there are Mahayana Sutras that spoke against this regression)
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Sanghamitta »

Smoke and mirrors are smoke and mirrors. Once their nature is realised they can be discounted, unless you need to put your makeup on, or have a shave.In which case mirrors are useful. Its intention that creates Karma Vipaka, a sincere intention later seen as pertaining to something imaginary remains a sincere intention even after understanding has deepened.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by tiltbillings »

Heavenstorm wrote:
In Mahayana, things are more serious because one have taken on additional vows. And when you break a vow, there are always negative consequences. Therefore, the more vows one have, the greater is the penalty if one backtrack on them.
Vow to whom? As for breaking a vow, it depends. Things change; one's insight may lead one into a differing direction than the supposed vow.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Aloka »

Heavenstorm wrote: Simple answer, in Theravada, there is no big doubt as one could still become an Arahant although there are stories that the ex Bodhisattas' partners (or spouses) in their previous lives will appear and disturb them for backtracking on their original commitment.

In Mahayana, things are more serious because one have taken on additional vows. And when you break a vow, there are always negative consequences. Therefore, the more vows one have, the greater is the penalty if one backtrack on them.

However, there are a few exceptions. In some rare cases, whereby an inspired Bodhisattva undergo rebirth and forgets about his original vows in the previous life before taking on a Buddhist practice and enter the stream. He will not face any serious penalty since he does not break his vows consciously but do so due to ignorance and lack of accumulated aspiration. (Still there are Mahayana Sutras that spoke against this regression)

I really don't mean to be rude and disrespectful, but all of this business of rules, a punishment system and penalities in another life sounds like a minefield of fantasy and fundamentalism centred around eternal personal 'souls'.

I especially found this statement ironical.... "In some rare cases, whereby an inspired Bodhisattva undergo rebirth and forgets about his original vows in the previous life before taking on a Buddhist practice and enter the stream. He will not face any serious penalty since he does not break his vows consciously but do so due to ignorance and lack of accumulated aspiration." ....because when I privately asking a respected tulku if he could remember his past lives, he said "No".



:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Aloka »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

If you do that in Vajrayana, supposedly you end up in Vajra Hell.
Tantric Buddhists are in the position of a snake inside a bamboo tube; one hole faces up to the Dharmakaya, the other down toward Vajra Hell. There are only two options -- up or down; no in-between. Keeping samaya (commitment) determines which way the snake slides.
http://www.khandro.net/TibBud%20_vajrayana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

"Vajra Hell" is a mental state induced by fear. :smile:



:anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Dan74 »

Aloka wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote: Simple answer, in Theravada, there is no big doubt as one could still become an Arahant although there are stories that the ex Bodhisattas' partners (or spouses) in their previous lives will appear and disturb them for backtracking on their original commitment.

In Mahayana, things are more serious because one have taken on additional vows. And when you break a vow, there are always negative consequences. Therefore, the more vows one have, the greater is the penalty if one backtrack on them.

However, there are a few exceptions. In some rare cases, whereby an inspired Bodhisattva undergo rebirth and forgets about his original vows in the previous life before taking on a Buddhist practice and enter the stream. He will not face any serious penalty since he does not break his vows consciously but do so due to ignorance and lack of accumulated aspiration. (Still there are Mahayana Sutras that spoke against this regression)

I really don't mean to be rude and disrespectful, but all of this business of rules, a punishment system and penalities in another life sounds like a minefield of fantasy and fundamentalism centred around eternal personal 'souls'.

:anjali:
Yes, it kind of does, doesn't it?

I haven't come across any teachers talking this up at all. But here on the web, one sees all sort of scary things...

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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Sanghamitta »

Aloka wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

If you do that in Vajrayana, supposedly you end up in Vajra Hell.
Tantric Buddhists are in the position of a snake inside a bamboo tube; one hole faces up to the Dharmakaya, the other down toward Vajra Hell. There are only two options -- up or down; no in-between. Keeping samaya (commitment) determines which way the snake slides.
http://www.khandro.net/TibBud%20_vajrayana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

"Vajra Hell" is a mental state induced by fear. :smile:
Surely then the remedy is to not get involved in systems that reinforce the possibility :?:


:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Aloka
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Aloka »

But here on the web, one sees all sort of scary things...
Agreed, Dan !

A further comment after my remark about Vajra Hell is that the different realms can be interpreted as ever changing mental states...for example we can even be in several realms mentally in the course of one day due to fluctuating thoughts and emotions.
For Mahayana practitioners who require teacher input about these things, I can add that a Tibetan teacher verified the interpretation of 'mental states' regarding different realms.

Luckily Theravada doesn't have the added complications of 'Vajra Hell' ! :)


:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

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Surely then the remedy is to not get involved in systems that reinforce the possibility

Wise words.


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Re: Renouncing Bodhisatta Vows

Post by Sanghamitta »

Aloka wrote:
But here on the web, one sees all sort of scary things...
Agreed, Dan !

A further comment after my remark about Vajra Hell is that the different realms can be interpreted as ever changing mental states...for example we can even be in several realms mentally in the course of one day due to fluctuating thoughts and emotions.
For Mahayana practitioners who require teacher input about these things, I can add that a Tibetan teacher verified the interpretation of 'mental states' regarding different realms.

Luckily Theravada doesn't have the added complications of 'Vajra Hell' ! :)


:anjali:
There are Theravada practitioners who see the hell realms as symbolic of mental states. Which in my view is reductionist, but is a option.
I know no Theravadins who see hell realms whether symbolic or actual as the outcome for those who simply change their mind on a point of doctrine. Or who grow disenchanted with a particular teacher.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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