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Rebirth Deniers - Dhamma Wheel

Rebirth Deniers

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nowheat
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Rebirth Deniers

Postby nowheat » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:05 pm

I keep seeing the term "rebirth denier" on these forums and wonder if anyone here who has used the term would kindly define it for me?

:namaste:

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:15 pm

Greetings nowheat,

I think to do that, firstly someone would need to define "rebirth", and specifically address the question of what is "re'd". Short of that level of enquiry, I can just imagine a lot of talking at cross purposes (which is quite possibly what you're hoping to address through this topic?).

It would also be worth someone finding specific examples where the Buddha specifically used the (pali equivalent of the term) "rebirth" rather than alternative words and phrases.

The onus on doing this, however, lies with those using the term "rebirth denier".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

nowheat
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby nowheat » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:28 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:30 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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BlackBird
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby BlackBird » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:30 am

I think a context here is important. Those who follow the Dhamma and do not believe that the Buddha taught postmortem continuance are a very distinct minority, a view and idea within Buddhism which has only cropped up very recently. Thus to the vast majority of practitioners - There's probably a bit of xenophobia towards those who do not ascribe to postmortem continuance. Wherever you have such a polarizing topic there is a need for a term, to define your adversaries position. Rebirth denial is the obvious choice, it even has the inference of being a close relative (in terms of logic) to holocaust denial.

metta
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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Dan74
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Dan74 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:33 am

Those evil rebirth deniers... :evil: someone should come and bloody well send them to their maker, then they'd find out what's what!

ok, back where i came from...

:toilet:

_/|\_
_/|\_

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:36 am

Greetings Blackbird,

Your comments raise a few questions...

Is a "Rebirth Denier" someone who denies the Buddha taught post-mortem continuance, or who does not believe personally in post-mortem continuance despite what the suttas say?

What logic is used in the instance of "Holocaust denial" and how is that analogous to "Rebirth denial"?

:juggling:

You speak of the need to "define your adversaries position"... but be careful not to define straw-men in the process!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

nowheat
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby nowheat » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:55 am


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BlackBird
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby BlackBird » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:48 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

kayy
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby kayy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:08 pm

oh dear.

I think it's worth being very careful indeed if one decides to step into the stormy territory of drawing comparisons with Hitler and the Holocaust!

:thinking:

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:46 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

vinasp
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby vinasp » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:59 pm

Hi everyone,

I am a rebirth denier and I am free of that delusion. Perhaps the "rebirth fanatics" would kindly explain how belief in rebirth differs from a delusion.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:12 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:33 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

nowheat
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby nowheat » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:36 pm

Last edited by nowheat on Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nowheat
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby nowheat » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:39 pm


Sanghamitta
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:02 pm

Last edited by Sanghamitta on Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

kayy
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby kayy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:57 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth Deniers

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:40 pm

I will stick to my first reasoning! don't underestimate the importance of rebirth within Buddhism, or think people don't understand some will be sensitive to certain subject or words, this is an international forum after all.
:focus:

EDIT: for a perspective on how important rebirth is to members, and to Buddhism have a look at this thread which has been going on over a year!
Last edited by Cittasanto on Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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