Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Heavenstorm
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Heavenstorm »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:
DorjePhurba wrote:Recently someone suggested that a meditator must abstain from sex in order to gain jhanic concentration. I've been reading a lot about jhana lately and have not come across anyone suggesting that. Could anyone shed some light and explain whether the Buddha ever said this?
Its half correct. In a retreat setting, abstain from sex is a must, of course. But for someone who has a daily job and life, its not possible to abstain completely, in this case, sex is discourage but not necessary forbidden.
why would it be impossible?
I'm assuming that people in general don't want to adapt a monastic lite lifestyle in their normal routine over here. In that situation, its not really possible to abstain completely from sex especially for married couple.
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
I don't think anyone will agree that one can cultivate Jhana while having sex at the same time. The contesting point in this thread is more like "How often one have sex in conjunction with their daily meditation practice". In that case, I don't think anyone here will want to have sex everyday, more like infrequent times in terms of once per week or month which doesn't lead to great lust or great hindrance.
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Sekha
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

thereductor wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:
thereductor wrote: I would hazard to say that you are missing out. Really. Especially if you are having trouble with the hindrance of sesuality.
Do you mean to say I should practice these?
That's what I'm saying, yes.

I guess you're assuming that since there is a matter of sexual sensations during the meditation, this technique should be used. As far as I understand this section of mhstp sutta, it is a starting point only, involving specific thoughts making (quite gross way of practicing), and is meant for people who could not start with another section, for example anapanasati. Such people who can't stop thinking about sexual affairs or matters of beauty of the body, and for whom the breath is too subtle as an object of concentration. They need to get their mind settled.

But there are much finer sankharas linked to sexual clinging, which have to be worked out by finer practices. This is what I mean here. I meditate on average 7 hours a day, so I do have moderately deep rooted sankharas coming up. These sensations usually come up in my morning session only after about 1 hour and a half of continuous practice. It is not as if I would sit for half an hour and feel bothered by sexual sensations, which is appearingly the context in which my statements are understood.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Kenshou wrote:
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
The desire for sex is not compatible with the jhanas in the same way that the desire for a new tv or a bowl of ice cream isn't. What makes sex more special than any other physical pleasure or desire? It -is- one that can be a little more potent, but even so, it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone, and is not what matters weather or not it disturbs meditation-time? I don't see any reason why " Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?" is unfeasible, provided that the meditator is able to properly drop all strings of sensuality when they sit down to meditate.

Desire for sex is the strongest of desires. Not to be compared with other desires. I would say the second one is food (from personal experience).
it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone
It is, unless you've already gone beyond and utterly given up sex in your life. With a practice which remains shallow, one may not feel that bothered (that was the case for me at the beginning) by it, but it would be totally different if the abstinence had to last much longer and the pratice to go much deeper.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Heavenstorm wrote:
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
I don't think anyone will agree that one can cultivate Jhana while having sex at the same time. The contesting point in this thread is more like "How often one have sex in conjunction with their daily meditation practice". In that case, I don't think anyone here will want to have sex everyday, more like infrequent times in terms of once per week or month which doesn't lead to great lust or great hindrance.
The answer in my view to the 'contesting point' is: never. What happens during the meditation is linked with everything else you do in your daily life (which is why its effects are so mighty), so you can't keep multiplying your cravings on one side and try to suppress them on the other for a long time. If you really want to get the real fruits of this path, a choice has to be made at some point.
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bodom
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by bodom »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:The answer in my view to the 'contesting point' is: never. What happens during the meditation is linked with everything else you do in your daily life (which is why its effects are so mighty), so you can't keep multiplying your cravings on one side and try to suppress them on the other for a long time. If you really want to get the real fruits of this path, a choice has to be made at some point.
That might be your take, but Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Gunaratana both experts in the practice and theory of Jhana and who have each written manuals for lay practitioners on how to attain jhana, neither one mentioned complete abstinence from sex. Even the buddha who recommended householders to abide in seclusion and rapture mentions nothing about celibacy only that...“When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist AT THAT TIME.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

bodom wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:The answer in my view to the 'contesting point' is: never. What happens during the meditation is linked with everything else you do in your daily life (which is why its effects are so mighty), so you can't keep multiplying your cravings on one side and try to suppress them on the other for a long time. If you really want to get the real fruits of this path, a choice has to be made at some point.
That might be your take, but Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Gunaratana both experts in the practice and theory of Jhana and who have each written manuals for lay practitioners on how to attain jhana, neither one mentioned complete abstinence from sex. Even the buddha who recommended householders to abide in seclusion and rapture mentions nothing about celibacy only that...“When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist AT THAT TIME.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good point. So I should step back with my statements.

I should probably rather say that in order to remain in first jhana, it is necessary to give it up. My experience (which may not be everyone's) is that the rapture very quickly makes sankharas of craving come up. Very soon the effect of these sankharas overpower the rapture and the jhana is lost (and there is a very wholesome and very unpleasant experience on account of that). So it may be that you can reach it, but you can't really dwell in it if you're not detached enough from sexuality.
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Freawaru
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Dukkhanirodha,
Dukkhanirodha wrote:
I should rephrase my statement to give a better grasp of what I meant:

The quest for sensual pleasures cannot coexist with actual progress towards wisdom
i agree. Still, sex is not only physical pleasure but has biological, mental, emotional and social components. Complete absence of sex in adolescent and adult humans can lead to illnesses (both physical as well a mental). And it's lack can lead to serious social problems such as divorce, too.

To practice jhana an already nice and calm everyday setting is best. Therefore, in the Visuddhimagga, the optimal monastery is described, aka one where one has no stress whatsoever to begin with. So, if the lack of sex leads to more stress than it's normal presence it is counterproductive for jhana. If - on the other hand - it's regular presence leads to an inability to concentrate on the meditation object during the session an abstinence for a limited time can be beneficial (and not only for jhana).
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi again,
Dukkhanirodha wrote: Desire for sex is the strongest of desires. Not to be compared with other desires. I would say the second one is food (from personal experience).
I disagree. Desire for survival is much stronger and some instincts are, too. To breathe is also much stronger. Drown and you will see how fast any idea of sex will disappear from your mind and body.

Not to mention that for some I know it seems football or desire for shoes are stronger. :lol:
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sanghamitta »

The fact is that there is no norm in this, it is a spectrum. A very well known rock musician talked a while back about the fact that he had never had a strong sex drive, but has kept quiet about the fact because it is not an expected trait in a rock star....but that once he did start to talk about literally hundreds of other people contacted him to say that they did not have a strong sex drive either, but that they had felt unable to talk about it until he had gone public. Just as some of the the previous generation felt that they had to keep quiet about the fact that they did have a strong sex drive.
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bodom
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by bodom »

Freawaru wrote: Not to mention that for some I know it seems football or desire for shoes are stronger. :lol:
GO RAIDERS!!!
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Jack »

Kenshou wrote:There is nothing special about sex, it's just another physical pleasure. And like all sensual pleasures, they've got to be out of mind during meditation. It isn't that there is some metaphysical mystical connection with sex and the stability of concentration. If you're craving chocolate cake in the middle of your session, that's as much of a hindrance as a sexual desire would be.
====
I don't think sensual pleasure or anything else have to be out of mind during meditation. They have to not be clung to. Just let them be.

jack
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by PeterB »

Jack wrote:
Kenshou wrote:There is nothing special about sex, it's just another physical pleasure. And like all sensual pleasures, they've got to be out of mind during meditation. It isn't that there is some metaphysical mystical connection with sex and the stability of concentration. If you're craving chocolate cake in the middle of your session, that's as much of a hindrance as a sexual desire would be.
====
I don't think sensual pleasure or anything else have to be out of mind during meditation. They have to not be clung to. Just let them be.

jack
That sounds right to me. It is just another phenomenon. Just another cloud that floats through and leaves if it is neither clung to nor denied.
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Sekha
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Freawaru wrote: Complete absence of sex in adolescent and adult humans can lead to illnesses (both physical as well a mental). And it's lack can lead to serious social problems such as divorce, too.

I don't see any support for this statement. What kind of physical illness exactly? I would be very surprised to learn about such a thing. If the Buddha prescribed so, it is because it leads to longer and healthier life, not otherwise.

Any mental illness is caused by craving, aversion and delusion, and nothing else.

Freawaru wrote: So, if the lack of sex leads to more stress than it's normal presence it is counterproductive for jhana. If - on the other hand - it's regular presence leads to an inability to concentrate on the meditation object during the session an abstinence for a limited time can be beneficial (and not only for jhana).
You have to overcome the 5 hindrances to reach jhana. You can't overcome anything without being confronted to it. You have to deal with what the Buddha refers to as "The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful".
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
You have to overcome the 5 hindrances to reach jhana. You can't overcome anything without being confronted to it. You have to deal with what the Buddha refers to as "The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful".
The hindrances are quited down, suppressed, in abeyance. Overcome suggests something a bit more final.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by pt1 »

I remember this topic coming up on e-sangha once and someone explained in terms of ayurveda that the sex-jhana relation is that in winter the body spends a lot more energy, nutrition, etc than in the summer on maintaining the heat and other vital functions, so sexual activity and production of sperm take a lot bigger toll comparatively on the body in winter than in summer. Hence, meditation practice might be adversely affected in winter due to resulting lack of energy and the other related physical problems. I think even the figures were given for how many sexual intercourses you can have in summer/winter without it affecting the body (and meditation) adversely, though I'd guess it would also have to do with age, local climate, health, etc.

Anyway, that's only related to the physical aspect, while for the psychological aspect, I guess it's like with any other sensual pleasure - the more one spends time on it - indulges in it or fights it (mentally, verbally or physically), the more likely it is to pop up during the meditation and disturb the calm.

Best wishes
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