Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

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Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby pt1 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:48 am

Hi, I’m trying to understand how does insight develop over consecutive lives, especially in the case of bodhisattas and (future) chief disciples of a (future) buddha.

As far as I can tell, there seem to be two opposing viewpoints in the commentaries:

1. Insight develops all the way up to sankhar’upekkha nana over multiple lives.

2. When insight develops to paccaya pariggaha nana, one becomes a cula-sotpanna of a fixed destiny, which means that s/he’s assured of not being reborn in the four lower realms and (if I’m not mistaken) assured of becoming a sotapanna in the same life. This would seem to imply that insight can be developed beyond paccaya pariggaha nana only in the last life.

The two viewpoints seem to be contradictory so I wonder if anyone knows how are they reconciled? Thanks.

The sources I came across online for the first viewpoint:
Three posts by Bhante Dhammanando from DSG 42544 42575 42602, giving translations from Majjhima and Puggalapannatti commentaries and Visuddhimagga 442-3 (Path of Purification XIV 28-31).
I remember Pa-Auk Sayadaw says the same thing (about sankhar’upekkha nana) in his Knowing and Seeing, though can't remember the page at the moment.

Three quotes which are related to cula-sotapanna issue are given in this post - from Visuddhimagga XIX, 26, 27; Ledi Sayadaw and Dr Mehm Tin Mon.

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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:14 am

May wish to bring in the notion of sammatta-niyama, too.

Pūrvaśaila:
22. The person who is affirmed in the eventual attainment of enlightenment (niyata) enters (okkamati) into affirmation (niyāma).387
There are two determinate states, i.e., states where the maturation is determined: determination on falsehood (micchattaniyama) resulting from unpardonable action (anantariyakamma) and the determination on correctness (sammattaniyama) which is the noble Path (ariyamagga). The Pubbaseliyas allude to another determination not recognoized by the Theravādins. Actually, the Buddhas can know, by means of their own power of consciousness (ñaṇabala), that such and such a being (satta) will attain (pāpuṇissati) awakening (bodhi) in the future (anāgata), and it is said: “The Bodhisatta is confirmed in the eventual attainment of enlightenment (niyata) due to the excellence of his own merit (puññussadattā).” Now the Bodhisatta who has come to his last lifetime (pacchimabhava), who is already fixed from this point of view, is able (bhabba) to understand completely (abhisametuṃ) [the Dharma] from the time of this birth (jāti) and thus is able to enter into the determination on correctness.
387 Kv, XIII, 4.

Theravāda:
127. The person (puggala) attached to an immediate destiny (anantarāpayutta) cannot enter into the assurance of eventual attainment of enlightenment (sammattaniyāma).1305
1305 Kv, XIII, 3.

Uttarāpathaka:
20. The individual (puggala) attached to an immediate destiny (anantarāpayutta) can enter into (okkameyya) the assurance of attaining eventual enlightenment (sammattaniyāma).1460
1460 Kv, XIII, 3.

I'll leave out other schools' ideas about this from non-Theravada sources.
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby Heavenstorm » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:35 pm

pt1 wrote:2. When insight develops to paccaya pariggaha nana, one becomes a cula-sotpanna of a fixed destiny, which means that s/he’s assured of not being reborn in the four lower realms and (if I’m not mistaken) assured of becoming a sotapanna in the same life. This would seem to imply that insight can be developed beyond paccaya pariggaha nana only in the last life.


This is very interesting, I recall reading the same stuff from Sarvastivada abhidhamma but I can't recall any details right now. :cookoo: Maybe they have more to say on this issue. Need to get back to that book.....
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:59 pm

I thought villa sotapanna was assured of enlightenment but I don't think it is mentioned in which lifetime this occures.
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby bazzaman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:57 am

.
Last edited by bazzaman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby Sekha » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:11 am

This samyutta deals with that matter : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn25

The Buddha states that a CS cannot die in this life before having attained sotapatti. Therefore he is guaranteed of both sotapatti and non-rebirth in lower realms. But there is no very precise desciption as to when exactly one becomes CS
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As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby bazzaman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:16 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:This samyutta deals with that matter : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn25

The Buddha states that a CS cannot die in this life before having attained sotapatti. Therefore he is guaranteed of both sotapatti and non-rebirth in lower realms. But there is no very precise desciption as to when exactly one becomes CS


Not that I doubt your statement... but the link is for many suttas - ten alone in SN25 - so could you narrow it down a bit?
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby Sekha » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:38 am

bazzaman wrote:Not that I doubt your statement... but the link is for many suttas - ten alone in SN25 - so could you narrow it down a bit?


Just click on any one of them and read it. It won't take you hours. They are short and are variations on the same basis:

one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby pt1 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:00 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:This samyutta deals with that matter : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn25

The Buddha states that a CS cannot die in this life before having attained sotapatti. Therefore he is guaranteed of both sotapatti and non-rebirth in lower realms. But there is no very precise desciption as to when exactly one becomes CS


Thanks Dukkhanirodha, this quote is a good find. As far as I gather from Bhikkhu Bodhi's note 268 on this passage, he equates the person here with faith-follower (saddhanusarin) and dhamma-follower (dhammanussarin).

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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby pt1 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:05 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:May wish to bring in the notion of sammatta-niyama, too.


Hi Venerable Pannasikhara,

Out of interest, what translation of kathavatthu are you using? I was looking for the passages you quote in the 1960 PTS edition by Aung and Rhys Davids and these were a lot more archaic and harder to comprehend than yours.

Best wishes
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:14 am

pt1 wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:May wish to bring in the notion of sammatta-niyama, too.


Hi Venerable Pannasikhara,

Out of interest, what translation of kathavatthu are you using? I was looking for the passages you quote in the 1960 PTS edition by Aung and Rhys Davids and these were a lot more archaic and harder to comprehend than yours.

Best wishes


Well... my quotes above were from an English translation (as yet unpublished, but online in PDF) of Bareau's Les Sectes Bouddhiques du Petit Véhicule.
Usually, for stuff like this, I'll pull up the Pali, and whatever English versions I have on hand or in library, and then try to work out something comprehensible from that! If I have a Bhikkhu Bodhi translation around, then usually I can use that, but for most others, I have to adapt the terminology a bit. That translation of Bareau is fairly usable though, I've found. And I like to cut-&-past. hehe.
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Re: Insight development VS cula-sotapanna fixed destiny

Postby pt1 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:27 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:Well... my quotes above were from an English translation (as yet unpublished, but online in PDF) of Bareau's Les Sectes Bouddhiques du Petit Véhicule.
Usually, for stuff like this, I'll pull up the Pali, and whatever English versions I have on hand or in library, and then try to work out something comprehensible from that! If I have a Bhikkhu Bodhi translation around, then usually I can use that, but for most others, I have to adapt the terminology a bit. That translation of Bareau is fairly usable though, I've found. And I like to cut-&-past. hehe.

Thanks Venerable, I hope the translation you are using will be made public at some point. If there's one book in the canon that deserves a new English translation, imo it's kathavatthu.

Best wishes
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