Focused and Fearless- read it?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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salmon
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by salmon »

I have to admit that I have not read the description of jhanas in the Visuddhimagga. My bad. I will make it a point to go read up on that now. And on the Pa Auk method too.

Shaila's jhanas feel more conducive to developing insights, and it would be, what I suppose we call, Vipassana Jhana?
And additionally, Shaila's jhana method seems to allow the possibility of using the state to gain insight, where Brahm's requires leaving the state and using the resulting clarity-of-mind after the fact for working on insight. Though those are probably both viable options, the former one strikes me as being closer the method described in the suttas.
I agree with you here that Shaila's doing a good job balancing jhana and insight. A.Brahm's method stems from the traditional forest kammathana style of jhana meditation. Most would find it easier to use Shaila's methods as she is a layperson like us, hence her experiences are what we would find easier to relate to.
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Kenshou
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Kenshou »

I believe the term vipassana jhana refers to stages in the development of insight, and aren't really related to the 4 jhanas of samatha meditation. But the two methods don't have to be separate. Jhana can be used a practical state from which to develop knowledge (à la the suttas), or insight can be practiced purely (the contemporary vipassana movement), or jhana can be practiced purely to great depths (Brahm, Visuddhimagga). It's good to have options.
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mikenz66
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by mikenz66 »

salmon wrote: A.Brahm's method stems from the traditional forest kammathana style of jhana meditation. Most would find it easier to use Shaila's methods as she is a layperson like us, hence her experiences are what we would find easier to relate to.
Ajahn Brahm's approach is also much more "absorption oriented" than what many of the other western students of Ajahn Chah teach (e.g. Ajahn's Tiradhamma, Munindo, Sumedho).

Metta
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Goofaholix
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Goofaholix »

mikenz66 wrote:
salmon wrote: A.Brahm's method stems from the traditional forest kammathana style of jhana meditation. Most would find it easier to use Shaila's methods as she is a layperson like us, hence her experiences are what we would find easier to relate to.
Ajahn Brahm's approach is also much more "absorption oriented" than what many of the other western students of Ajahn Chah teach (e.g. Ajahn's Tiradhamma, Munindo, Sumedho).
I think he was probably referring to the forest lineage as a whole, not just Ajahn Chahs disciples in the West. In Thailand it's pretty much assumed to be part of the practice.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by mikenz66 »

Goofaholix wrote: I think he was probably referring to the forest lineage as a whole, not just Ajahn Chahs disciples in the West. In Thailand it's pretty much assumed to be part of the practice.
Yes, that's a good point. But it is interesting to wonder why Ajahn Brahm's instructions appear so different from his western contemporary Ajahn Chah students.

Mike
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Goofaholix
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Goofaholix »

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, that's a good point. But it is interesting to wonder why Ajahn Brahm's instructions appear so different from his western contemporary Ajahn Chah students.

Mike
For the same reason there are so many teachers teaching different techniques and approaches, it worked for him and it didn't really work for them, teachers teach what worked for them.

I think in general westerners find jhanas pretty elusive, they are much better at dry insight approaches, Ajahn Brahm is one exception to this. What does make him unique is his insistence that this is the way to go, both for monks and lay people, whereas people like Shaila will teach it as one option among others.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by AdvaitaJ »

It's now been a couple of months since I finished Catherine's book and probably three or four since I read Ajahn Brahm's. In retrospect, what strikes me is that Ajahn Brahm seemed much more definite in his teaching whereas Catherine's is more guiding. Each contributed a significant amount to my understanding. I think Ajahn Brahm's "this then that" style was very helpful in getting me started and Catherine's statement that humans have been achieving jhana for centuries "and so can you" is extremely beneficial in building confidence.

When listening to Ajahn Brahm's talks, he strikes me as someone who has been doing what he does, both meditating and teaching, for a long time and is well established in ideas, methods, and guidance. I.e., someone who has seen so much water flow under the bridge that he bypasses the fringes and gets straight to the point.

With regards to Catherine's connection of jhana to Vipassana, my recollection is that she repeatedly made the point that practicing jhana without using the experience to gain insight would be merely self-indulgent "blissing out". The intensity with which she makes those statements makes me most curious about her experiences. As for her audio teachings, I was listening (briefly) to one yesterday and, frankly, her style is not suited to me. She comes across very much like one of my algebra teachers -- very slow and methodical and determined not to lose any of her students along the way. That's a wonderful attitude for the struggling students, but I learn best when I'm more challenged to keep up.

Regards: AdvaitaJ
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salmon
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by salmon »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Salmon,

I'm no expert on this, but Shaila's approach seems to be based on Pa Auk Sayadaw's approach and the Visuddhimagga. I.e. a more "commentarial" approach, not necessarily "untraditional". I believe that the Visuddhimagga does talk about skipping through the Jhanas in different orders.

It is interesting that Ajahn Brahm talks about following the Suttas closely, but his descriptions of the Jhanas are very "deep", more like in the Visuddhimagga than in the Suttas.

Metta
Mike
Hi Mike (and all),

I search for the bit where the Pa Auk Sayadaw mentions one can skip jhana levels but I can't seem to find it. Sorry I'm really bad at finding section from texts. Can you help? All I find are that you can skip jhana into vipassana but I can't find the skipping from access concentration to the various jhana levels.

Thanks.
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
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mikenz66
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Salmon,
salmon wrote: I search for the bit where the Pa Auk Sayadaw mentions one can skip jhana levels but I can't seem to find it. Sorry I'm really bad at finding section from texts. Can you help? All I find are that you can skip jhana into vipassana but I can't find the skipping from access concentration to the various jhana levels.
I thought he discussed this in the context of supernormal powers in "Knowing and Seeing" (PDF on Buddhanet.net), but I see he just mentions supernormal powers and that they require mastery of jhanas in fourteen ways:
Psychic powers (abhinnà-nisaÿsa): If one wants to master the mundane psychic powers, like the recollection of past lives (pubbenivàsànussati-abhinnaà), the divine eye (dibbacakkhu), the divine ear (dibba-sota), knowing the mind of others (paracitta-vijànana), and the supernormal powers (iddhividha), flying, walking on water, etc., one must develop the ten kasinas and eight attainments (samàpatti) in fourteen ways. This is the third benefit of concentration.
This is described in detail in Visuddhimagga, Chapter XII, paragraph 2.
He must have complete control of his mind in the following ways: (i) in the order of the kasinas, (ii) in the reverse order of the kasinas ... (vi) skipping jhanas, (viii) skipping kasinas, ...
...
5. (vii) He skips alternate jhanas without skipping the kasinas in the following way: having first attained the first jhana in the earth kasina, he attains the third jhana in that same kasina, ...
I see that Pa Auk Sayadaw (in "Knowing and Seeing") talks about changing to different jhanas by coming out of jhana then going back into a different jhana, rather than transitioning between jhanas, as Shaila describes.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not an expert on this, just offering what I've read in various places.

Metta
Mike
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salmon
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by salmon »

Thanks for the fast reply mike. It's a good enough start for me to keep searching.

Appreciate it! :anjali:
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
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Collective
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Collective »

This book comes up a lot.

Would it be good for a beginner practising vipassana (like myself) to purchase?
Kenshou
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Kenshou »

I do have the book, and I would say no. The insight-related sections are brief, and are dealt with in the context of jhana or the moments during the dissolution of jhana. If you want a book on pure vipassana, this isn't the book for that.
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by limbo »

AdvaitaJ wrote: With regards to Catherine's connection of jhana to Vipassana, my recollection is that she repeatedly made the point that practicing jhana without using the experience to gain insight would be merely self-indulgent "blissing out". The intensity with which she makes those statements makes me most curious about her experiences.
This is actually a commonly used warning when talking about jhanas and is often used as one of the reasons why teachers in the west do not teach jhana and actually see jhana as a potential trap on the path. I don't know what Catherine's specific experiences were like but this warning is by no means unique to her.
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by Kenshou »

It is really common. As I quote from Leigh Bransington, "An interesting thing that I have observed that holds for most teachers of Jhana is that they tend to regard all Jhana methods with concentration levels less than their own as "not authentic, not real Jhanas", and they tend to regard all methods with concentration levels stronger than their own as "indulging, not useful."

Everybody is right, everybody is wrong, what can you do? :thinking:
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Re: Focused and Fearless- read it?

Post by imagemarie »

Kenshou wrote:Everybody is right, everybody is wrong, what can you do? :thinking:
Through practice you come to realize something for yourself
- A. Chah (thanks bodom :smile: )
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