Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

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Buddha's Dancer

Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by Buddha's Dancer »

BlackBird wrote:
Buddha's Dancer wrote: and are every bit as precious and virtuous as their better-known canonical brethren.
Respectfully friend, I think that is a matter of opinion :)

metta
Jack :heart:
Have you read them??
Also, simply the fact of something being a matter of opinion does not make the opinion wrong.
To establish the truth or otherwise of a statement or thesis you need to use logic. The use of logic is well established in the Buddhist tradition and you may have recourse to it to establish correctness or otherwise in any case.
However, merely saying that some claim is mere opinion and hoping to thereby establish a connotation of incorrectness, is not sound logic according to Buddhist traditions of logic.
Generally, logical correctness is established on the bases of direct valid perception, valid inference, and valid believable scriptures.
I mention this because it is important to keep these things in mind when stating opionions and attempting to refute same. Otherwise it merely becomes one person's opinion against another's and nothing is proved. However, by employing logic, one can arrive the truth of the matter.
In my opinion.
:)
And to the other man, they are in accord with the Dhamma vinaya.
They are written by the great Theras, masters of the Pali and Sinhalese tradition - how could they disagree with the Tathagata??
But if you dont pay them any attention, it is your decision. Many people dont pay lovely lotus flowers any attention - but it is not the flowers' fault!
Or, if there is a passage or passages you found are at variance with the Dhammavinaya, please let me know, I havent found any of those passages yet - only verses of uplift (udanas) which are on par with the pitaka itself!
So, I recommend these works! Especially Dathavamsa, History of the Tooth Relic - it is quite delightful!
Last edited by Buddha's Dancer on Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ben
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by Ben »

Hi Buddha's Dancer

You are welcome here. Just as all people who share an interest in the Theravada, regardless of which school or tradition they follow, are welcome here.
But as you are beginning to pick up, there are some sensitivities with regards to non-Theravadin and revisionistic interpretations of Theravadin literature. You need to be aware of those sensitivities even, as I am sure, your intention is not to prosetylize or to correct others.
Thank you for joining us and sharing your enthusiastic love of the Dhamma!
metta

Ben
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Buddha's Dancer

Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by Buddha's Dancer »

Ben wrote:Hi Buddha's Dancer

You are welcome here. Just as all people who share an interest in the Theravada, regardless of which school or tradition they follow, are welcome here.
But as you are beginning to pick up, there are some sensitivities with regards to non-Theravadin and revisionistic interpretations of Theravadin literature. You need to be aware of those sensitivities even, as I am sure, your intention is not to prosetylize or to correct others.
Thank you for joining us and sharing your enthusiastic love of the Dhamma!
metta

Ben
Oh no. Quite so. There can be no proselytization outside of reason, otherwise it becomes nothing by schismatization.
So any claim made must be susceptible to logical enquiry, otherwise it is not worth the claim.
For example, saying to a person who is fond of rhodedendrons, "Why look, this rose has a wonderful fragrance", one can confidently stand by this opinion with sound reason without fear of offending the other party. Why? Because the relative phenomena in question do not impinge on the other and there aren't reasonable grounds to take offence.

Far be it from me to make any claim which cannot stand up to reasonable scrutiny. If after being logically scrutinized in accord with Buddhist prinicples of logic there is incorrectness exposed, I would be first to renounce the claim.
In this realm of reasonableness there is no connotation of schismatization, quite the opposite. The claims are based on direct valid perception or valid inference or valid scriptures and they may be critiqued via the same modes of reasoning.
However, merely saying "With respect, friend, your opinions are just that - opinions" and attemtping thereby to infer incorrectness does not establish anything more than another opinion on top of the original opinion, and this second and any subsequent opinions are not established as any more or less correct (valid) than the first. This, indeed, is the realm of schismatization, not reason.
Therefore, reason and logic in accord with Buddhist principles must be resorted to to arrive at something approaching the truth of the matter.
One can certainly begin to enquire into the principles of direct valid perception, for example, by studying the Abhidhamma, in relation to the skandhas, ayatanas, dhatus, etc.
pt1
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by pt1 »

And another thing good to be aware of is that many dedicated theravadins nowadays have little regard for abhidhamma and commentaries. Whether this is simply due to never having the chance to read these, or simply because they place their faith in some of the modern teachers who likewise have very little regard for those parts of the theravadin teachings, I don't know. Either way, the suttas are next in line to loose the mainstream credibility, and occasionally there are calls for stripping the canon down to only those suttas that can be directly attributed to the Buddha, or only those that don't show the signs of tampering, or only those that can be historically placed at the time of the first council, etc.

I guess the point is that the decline of the teachings is normal, I mean, the sasana has to decline and then end in one way or another, so trying to force people to accept this or that text as canonical or extra-canonical just won't work in the long run. Providing links to some of these works on the other hand might be very helpful. I.e. those who feel the inclination to read them can do so. I for one never even heard about some of the works you mention so it'd be interesting to read a short description about them and a link where they can be found if the inclination arises.

Best wishes
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retrofuturist
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings pt1,
pt1 wrote:I guess the point is that the decline of the teachings is normal
It depends how you look at it, doesn't it? Some might see it as reversing the decline, undoing damage that's been done?

As for myself, I'm not going to say it's one or the other... in the interests of balance, I just wanted to call out this unstated assumption of yours.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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pt1
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by pt1 »

Thanks for pointing out my mistake retro. I guess a better way to put it would have been to say that all things are impermanent, sasana included. Whether one sees a particular action as restoration/destruction of the sasana - that's down to speculative views, and there's little point arguing these, which is why I felt links to the mentioned works might be a little more useful than arguing.

Best wishes
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BlackBird
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by BlackBird »

Buddha's Dancer wrote: Also, simply the fact of something being a matter of opinion does not make the opinion wrong.
Indeed, could you please explain to me why you think these texts are 'just as precious and virtuous' as the Nikayas?
Buddha's Dancer wrote: To establish the truth or otherwise of a statement or thesis you need to use logic.
I agree, let's hear your's.

metta
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Paññāsikhara
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Re: Extra-Canonical Theravada Texts

Post by Paññāsikhara »

BlackBird wrote:
Buddha's Dancer wrote: To establish the truth or otherwise of a statement or thesis you need to use logic.
I agree, let's hear your's.
Actually, logic won't help that much.

For instance, if the premises are false, then a logically coherent statement may still be wrong.
eg. all human beings are reptiles, reptiles are cold blooded, therefore human beings are cold blooded.

Or, even when a statement is logically incoherent, the conclusion may still be true.
eg. all human beings are mammals, mammals are warm blooded, therefore snakes are cold blooded.

Logic can only help as a tool to organize knowledge and draw conclusions from that, however, it is sufficient to produce new knowledge in an of itself. For that, other means are necessary. Usually, good arguments will contains both true premises and coherent logic, to draw further true conclusions.
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