Hi Gabe,gabrielbranbury wrote:Hello acinteyyo,
It sounds a little like you have a Theravada equivalent of "emptiness sickness". You seem to associate "life" with "illusion". Try thinking outside the box. I wish I knew how to say that in a better way but right now but alas I am at a loss.
Metta
Gabe
this is right, more or less. I associate "living being" with "belief in self" and the "belief in self" is a delusion. Because the puthujjana thinks: "I am" this "living being". This "living being" is just the five aggregates of grasping and the puthujjana regards the five aggregates of grasping as himself. But as we know, the five aggregates are not-self. It is difficult for me to explain myself better. Maybe you could show me the mistakes I made in your opinion. This would make things easier for me to argue with.
Hi Mike,mikenz66 wrote:Hi acinteyyo,
I, too, don't see how you think there is "something" to be found in a non-Arahant.
Admittedly the following is attributed to Ven Vajira, not the Buddha, but I take this as the canonical position:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;MettaJust as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'
Mike
I think you misunderstood me. When we say "non-arahant" (we don't mind sotapanna or anagami and so on here...) what we mean is "a being". "A being" means the five aggregates of grasping (pañc'upādānakkhandhā), this is also meant by "a person". So what is found in "a being" or rather what is "a being"? - the five aggregates of grasping. What is not to be found is "a self". "A being" clings to the five aggregates of grasping and takes what appears to be his 'self' at face value. This is the delusion. "A being" regards himself as a "self" (because of attavāda). The fundamental clinging (upādāna) in the five aggregates of grasping (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) is the "belief in self" (attavāda). To regard the five aggregates of grasping as "self" is the "personality view" (sakkāyaditthi). The five aggregates of grasping are regarded as the "person" (sakkāya). (Meaning that the pañc'upādānakkhandhā are regarded as sakkāya.)
The "person" (pañc'upādānakkhandhā) which "I am", which is "mine", which is "my self". This delusion can be found in a "non-arahant" but cannot be found in an arahant. It is the fundamental clinging to the "belief in self" which can be found in a "non-arahant" but not in an arahant. That is the reason why the five aggregates "of an arahant" are called "pañcakkhandhā". There is no clinging (upādāna) to "belief in self" (attavāda).
You have to read the whole reply.mikenz66 wrote:Hi Acinteyyo,I think you are confusing two things:acinteyyo wrote:No, it entails the destruction of the illusion.Paññāsikhara wrote:Do you think that becoming an arahant entails the destruction of this "actual in truth" soul / person / being?
1. The Arahant going beyond self-view.
2. The view of a non-Arahant perceiving another being who may or may not be an Arahant.
In the second case whether the being is an Arahant or not makes no difference to whether the non-Arahant perceives a self in him/her.
Metta
Mike
Ven. Paññāsikhara said:
And I answered:Paññāsikhara wrote:It sounds to me as though you think that an in the case of an unenlightened person there is some "actual in truth" soul / person / being, but not for an arahant.
The illusion I meant is the "belief in self" (attavāda), which is the fundamental clinging (upādāna).acinteyyo wrote:No, there isn't some "actual in truth" soul/person/being but there is some "actual in truth" illusion of a soul/person/being in case of an unenlightended person, but not for an arahant.
The Ven. Paññāsikhara asked what you quoted above.
I'm not talking about the things you think I'm confusing. I'm only talking about "belief in self" (attavāda). Which is to be found in the puthujjana and not in an arahant.
best wishes, acinteyyo