Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Locked
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Post by Dhammakid »

Will wrote:Have not read every post here, so apologies if this was mentioned.

Instead of arguing about Buddha's motives, whether he said what he said or it was tampered with, whether patriarchy rules etc.- why not just search the records for a female Buddha? There have been many buddhas before Gotama and there will be more. The next one will be male, as were all that came before, so far as I know of. The Jains (a non-theistic group) have a very long list of Tirthankaras - they were all male.

The Mahayana and Hinduism have very high avatars or bodhisattvas that are female - Tara & Parvati for example. But as far as Buddhas go, I am not aware of any females. (If one wants to add "yet" - feel free.)
There might be an easy answer to this, but correct me if I'm wrong: the suttas and commentaries were compiled by men (except for the Verses of the Elder Nuns)...Is it possible sexist monks/scholars ignored female Sammasambuddhas?

:namaste:
Dhammakid
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammakid wrote:If we actually do want to become teaching Buddhas, then we most definitely won't be able to avoid this discussion.
Whether we want to become teaching Buddhas or not is irrelevant as there is currently no teaching Buddha around to make a vow in front of. And by the time the next one arises who knows what gender we'll be?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Peter wrote:
Dhammakid wrote:If we actually do want to become teaching Buddhas, then we most definitely won't be able to avoid this discussion.
Whether we want to become teaching Buddhas or not is irrelevant as there is currently no teaching Buddha around to make a vow in front of. And by the time the next one arises who knows what gender we'll be?
Yes, good point. But it still doesn't defeat the fact that women can't do it. By the time Maitreya comes around, I might be a woman, and then I'll most definitely have to deal with this discussion.

:namaste:
Dhammakid
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammakid wrote:
Peter wrote:
Dhammakid wrote:If we actually do want to become teaching Buddhas, then we most definitely won't be able to avoid this discussion.
Whether we want to become teaching Buddhas or not is irrelevant as there is currently no teaching Buddha around to make a vow in front of. And by the time the next one arises who knows what gender we'll be?
Yes, good point. But it still doesn't defeat the fact that women can't do it. By the time Maitreya comes around, I might be a woman, and then I'll most definitely have to deal with this discussion.
By the time Maitreya comes around the existing teachings will have been long lost. So you won't even know of this discussion.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Peter wrote: By the time Maitreya comes around the existing teachings will have been long lost. So you won't even know of this discussion.
Sure, but I will eventually learn of this idea. Or are you thinking that maybe, as a female practitioner in a future life, I won't ever hear about this rule?

Why are we still trying to downplay this?

:namaste:
Dhammakid
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

If we actually do want to become teaching Buddhas, then we most definitely won't be able to avoid this discussion.
We can aspire to be anything we want. Hopefully someone is guiding. If not, I would guess that anyone can ask the experienced practitioners or Venerables here about the good directions to take in one's practice.

Maybe a split thread about the nature of vows and aspirations in buddhism would be appealing to folks?

Best wishes,
Drolma
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

Drolma wrote:We can aspire to be anything we want. Hopefully someone is guiding. If not, I would guess that anyone can ask the experienced practitioners or Venerables here about the good directions to take in one's practice.

Maybe a split thread about the nature of vows and aspirations in buddhism would be appealing to folks?

Best wishes,
Drolma
I beat ya to it. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
Dhammakid
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Dhammakid wrote:
Drolma wrote:We can aspire to be anything we want. Hopefully someone is guiding. If not, I would guess that anyone can ask the experienced practitioners or Venerables here about the good directions to take in one's practice.

Maybe a split thread about the nature of vows and aspirations in buddhism would be appealing to folks?

Best wishes,
Drolma
I beat ya to it. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
Dhammakid
You are way ahead of me! :toast:
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:Why are we still trying to downplay this?
I downplay it because I think a preoccupation with it indicates a seriously misplaced sense of priorities and a lack of awareness of just how perilous our present lot is.

For example, did you know that according to the Suttas the great majority of humans will be reborn after death in the lower realms? Hardly any of us will even manage to be human beings in the next life, let alone Sammāsambuddhas billions of lives from now.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Ngawang Drolma.
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:Why are we still trying to downplay this?
I downplay it because I think a preoccupation with it indicates a seriously misplaced sense of priorities and a lack of awareness of just how perilous our present lot is.

For example, did you know that according to the Suttas the great majority of humans will be reborn after death in the lower realms? Hardly any of us will even manage to be human beings in the next life, let alone Sammāsambuddhas billions of lives from now.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Hi Venerable,

If we have taken sincere refuge (or formal refuge) in the triple gem are we automatically protected from falling into the lower realms?

Thank you,
Drolma
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:There might be an easy answer to this, but correct me if I'm wrong: the suttas and commentaries were compiled by men (except for the Verses of the Elder Nuns)...Is it possible sexist monks/scholars ignored female Sammasambuddhas?
Yes, it’s possible that the Buddha delivered a plethora of teachings on female Sammasambuddhas and sexist monks engaged in a conspiracy to suppress them all.

And perhaps there were speciesist monks too, guilty of suppressing the Buddha’s many discourses on kangaroo Sammāsambuddhas, chimpanzee Paccekabuddhas etc.

Once we start down the hermeneutics-of-suspicion road, the possibilities are limitless.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by jcsuperstar »

also i think it needs to be pointed out that men cant be a buddha, A man can. its not like men get to line up and the best one is chosen, no the majority of beings period can never do this, we might as well be upset that tigers or gods, or trees cant be a buddha. one dude, some super rare guy, who has to go through eons of perfecting himself can do this. and then what does he get for it? not much more than you and i can get for a life time of working hard to reach the same state. sure he gets millions of statues in his honor, but so does mickey mouse... the buddha may be the greatest guy ever, but being a buddha probably isnt the thing most of us really want to be. i mean those great disciples in the suttas if they thought it was such a great thing to do could have may those vows to shakyamuni, but you dont see them doing it, and i dont think it's a matter of ananda, or mahakasyapa or Sāriputta where selfish or lazy.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Post by Dhammakid »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Dhammakid,
Dhammakid wrote:There might be an easy answer to this, but correct me if I'm wrong: the suttas and commentaries were compiled by men (except for the Verses of the Elder Nuns)...Is it possible sexist monks/scholars ignored female Sammasambuddhas?
Yes, it’s possible that the Buddha delivered a plethora of teachings on female Sammasambuddhas and sexist monks engaged in a conspiracy to suppress them all.

And perhaps there were speciesist monks too, guilty of suppressing the Buddha’s many discourses on kangaroo Sammāsambuddhas, chimpanzee Paccekabuddhas etc.

Once we start down the hermeneutics-of-suspicion road, the possibilities are limitless.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Bhante,
I don't appreciate the sarcasm at all, mostly because it's not even applicable. No one here in their right mind would speculate on the Buddhahood of animals. Completely unnecessary. Furthermore, I find it likely that at least a few monks could have been influenced by their biases, just as those in any other religion are, or any other social group or community or chess club or whatever. I'm an African American - the entire western world conspired against us. So your words are so poorly placed.

All of this is easy for a man to say. Lucky us, huh?

I never downplayed the importance of present practice. That's not the issue. The issue is we are taking the suttas for face value, and even discouraging discussion about it.

Like I said before, I appreciated your analysis of the abhidhammic/commentary viewpoint on the issue. I can accept that. It's the idea that women can't be Buddhas in any age, regardless of kamma, social condition or whatever else, that I have a problem with.

If you all don't want to talk about it anymore, then I don't mind stopping.

:namaste:
Dhammakid
Last edited by Dhammakid on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dhammakid
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:09 am
Location: Santa Fe, NM USA
Contact:

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammakid »

jcsuperstar wrote:...one dude, some super rare guy, who has to go through eons of perfecting himself can do this. and then what does he get for it? not much more than you and i can get for a life time of working hard to reach the same state. sure he gets millions of statues in his honor, but so does mickey mouse... the buddha may be the greatest guy ever, but being a buddha probably isnt the thing most of us really want to be. i mean those great disciples in the suttas if they thought it was such a great thing to do could have may those vows to shakyamuni, but you dont see them doing it, and i dont think it's a matter of ananda, or mahakasyapa or Sāriputta where selfish or lazy.
You make a good point JC. Thanks.

:namaste:
Dhammakid
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammakid wrote:No one here in their right mind would speculate on the Buddhahood of animals.
According to one of the most famous Zen koans, a monk once approached the Zen master Jōshū and asked him, "Does a dog possess Buddha-nature or not?" I guess that monk wasn't in his right mind.
I find it likely that at least a few monks could have been influenced by their biases
The Canon wasn't preserved by a few monks. If a few monks wanted to insert their biases, they'd have to get all the other monks to go along with it.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Locked