What is view-craving?

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What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:20 am

Hi everyone,

View-craving ( ditthi-tanha ) is mentioned in several places in the five nikayas. I presume that it is what results in "view-clinging". I would like a better understanding of these things. What are your thoughts?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby Ben » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:34 am

It wuld belp, vincent, if you provided a quote and a reference.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:36 am

Hi everyone,

This view-craving is described in AN ii 10 (Yokes).

"And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving. This is the yoke of sensuality, the yoke of becoming, & the yoke of views.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:35 pm

Hi everyone,

Some more resources for studying this topic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The four kinds of clinging and their origination in craving from MN 11.

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self." MN 11.9

"These four kinds of clinging have craving as their source, craving as their origin, they are born and produced from craving.
Craving has what as its source ...? Craving has feeling as its source ...
Feeling has what as its source ...? Feeling has contact as its source ...
Contact has what as its source ...? Contact has the sixfold base as its source ...
[ and so on for : mentality-materiality, consciousness, formations and ignorance. ]
Middle Length Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 162. [ MN 11. 16 ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Another passage about "view-craving" [ not ditthi-tanha ].
The following is from Anguttara Nikaya, 2. Dukanipata, 4. Samacittavaggo, 38.

38. I heard thus. at one time venerable Mahakaccayana was living in Benares on the bank of river Kaddamadaha. Then the brahmin Aramamadanda approached venerable Mahakaccayana exchanged friendly greetings sat on a side and said: Good Kaccayana what is the reason and cause that warriors dispute with warriors, brahmins with brahmins and householders with householders and even recluses with recluses. On account of a conceited, bonded attachment to sensual craving, warriors dispute with warriors, brahmins with brahmins and householders with householders.

Good Kaccayana what is the reason and cause that recluses dispute with recluses? On account of a conceited, bonded attachment craving for a doctrinal view recluses dispute with recluses. [ translation from the www.metta.lk website.]

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ttavaggo-e

Here is the same passage from PTS Gradual Sayings :

"Pray, master Kaccana, what is the reason, what is the cause, why nobles quarrel with nobles, brahmins with brahmins, and householders with householders?"
"They do so because of their bondage and servitude to sensual lusts, their greed for sensual lusts; because they are possessed by attachment to the lusts of sensuality."
"But pray, master Kaccana, what is the reason, what is the cause why recluses quarrel with recluses?"
"They do so because of their bondage .... to the lust of opinion."

PTS Gradual Sayings Vol I page 61, translated by F. L. Woodward. [AN i, 65].
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The Brahmajala Sutta ( D.N. 1) may be speaking of a "view-craving".
See : DN 1. 3. 44, DN 1. 3. 57 and DN 1. 3. 71
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. The Sammaditthi Sutta ( D.N. 9 ) is interesting. It uses a sixfold analysis of contact, feeling and craving, but then changes to a fourfold analysis of clinging.
See : DN 9. 34, DN 9. 38, DN 9. 42 and DN 9. 46
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:02 am

Hi everyone,

The arguments that I am presenting in this thread are as follows:

1. All (wrong) views are "view-clinging".
2. There is a "view-craving" associated with every "view-clinging".

This means that (wrong) views are not normal beliefs but are what we would call delusions.

3. That "view-craving" is also called "craving for mind-objects" (dhamma-tanha).
4. That "view-craving" is found in the second noble truth as "bhava-ditthi" and "vibhava-ditthi".

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:34 am

Greetings Vincent,

vinasp wrote:The arguments that I am presenting in this thread are as follows:

1. All (wrong) views are "view-clinging".


Why must a wrong view entail clinging? I might have the view that tomorrow will be a sunny day based on a 7-day weather forecast that I saw 6 days ago. I might then see a revised weather forecast that says tomorrow will in fact by very rainy. I would adjust my view to reflect the updated information. I would not cling to the original view because I can see it is unlikely to be true.

View and clinging are therefore separable and not-synonymous.

Disagreeing on point 1 derails any ability to have meaninful dialogue on points 2-4 at this point in time.

Metta,
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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby cooran » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:03 am

Hello all,

This may be of interest:

ditthi
(lit. 'sight'; Ö dis, to see): view, belief, speculative opinion, insight.

If not qualified by sammā, 'right', it mostly refers to wrong and evil view or opinion, and only in a few instances to right view, understanding or insight (e.g. ditthi-ppatta, q.v.; ditthi-visuddhi, purification of insight; ditthi-sampanna, possessed of insight).

Wrong or evil views (ditthi or micchā-ditthi) are declared as utterly rejectable for being a source of wrong and evil aspirations and conduct, and liable at times to lead man to the deepest abysses of depravity, as it is said in A. I, 22:

"No other thing than evil views do I know, o monks, whereby to such an extent the unwholesome things not yet arisen arise, and the unwholesome things already arisen are brought to growth and fullness. No other thing than evil views do I know, whereby to such an extent the wholesome things not yet arisen are hindered in their arising, and the wholesome things already arisen disappear. No other thing than evil views do I know, whereby to such an extent human beings at the dissolution of the body, at death, are passing to a way of suffering, into a world of woe, into hell." Further in A. I, 23: "Whatever a man filled with evil views performs or undertakes, or whatever he possesses of will, aspiration, longing and tendencies, all these things lead him to an undesirable, unpleasant and disagreeable state, to woe and suffering."

From the Abhidhamma (Dhs) it may be inferred that evil views, whenever they arise, are associated with greed (s. Tab. I. 22, 23, 26, 27).

Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere, and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief (sakkāya-ditthi), or ego-illusion (atta-ditthi), is of 2 kinds: eternity-belief and annihilation-belief.

Eternity-belief (sassata-ditthi) is the belief in the existence of a persisting ego-entity, soul or personality, existing independently of those physical and mental processes that constitute life and continuing even after death.

Annihilation-belief (uccheda-ditthi), on the other hand, is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkāya-ditthi.

Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohāra-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately.

For further details, s. anattā, khandha, paticcasamuppāda.

"The Perfect One is free from any theory (ditthigata), for the Perfect One has seen what corporeality is, and how it arises and passes away. He has seen what feeling ... perception ... mental formations ... consciousness are, and how they arise and pass away. Therefore I say that the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection and casting out of all imaginings and conjectures, of all inclination to the 'vain-glory of 'I' and 'mine." (M. 72).

The rejection of speculative views and theories is a prominent feature in a chapter of the Sutta-Nipāta, the Atthaka-Vagga.

The so-called 'evil views with fixed destiny' (niyata-micchāditthi) constituting the last of the 10 unwholesome courses of action (kammapatha), are the following three:

(1) the fatalistic 'view of the uncaused ness' of existence (ahetukaditthi),

(2) the view of the inefficacy of action' (akiriyaditthi),

(3) nihilism (natthikaditthi).


(1) was taught by Makkhali-Gosāla, a contemporary of the Buddha who denied every cause for the corruptness and purity of beings, and asserted that everything is minutely predestined by fate.

(2) was taught by Pūrana-Kassapa, another contemporary of the Buddha who denied every karmical effect of good and bad actions: "To him who kills, steals, robs, etc., nothing bad will happen. For generosity, self-restraint and truthfulness, etc. no reward is to be expected."

(3) was taught by Ajita-Kesakambali, a third contemporary of the Buddha who asserted that any belief in good action and its reward is a mere delusion, that after death no further life would follow, that man at death would become dissolved into the elements, etc.

For further details about these 3 views, s. D.2, M.60; commentarial exposition in WHEEL 98/99, P. 23.

Frequently mentioned are also the 10 antinomies (antagāhikā micchā-ditthi): 'Finite is the world' or 'infinite is the world' ... 'body and soul are identical' or 'body and soul are different' (e.g. M. 63).

In the Brahmājala Sutta .(D.1), 62 false views are classified and described, comprising all conceivable wrong views and speculations about man and world.

See The All-Embracing Net of Views (Brahmājala Sutta), tr. with Com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi (BPS).

Further s. D.15, D.23, M.24, D.28; M.11, M.12, M.25, M.60, M.63, M.72, M.76, M.101, M.102, M.110; A.II.16; A.X.93; S.XXI, S.XXIV; Pts.M. Ditthikathā, etc.

Wrong views (ditthi) are one of the proclivities (s. anusaya), cankers (s. āsava), clingings (s. upādāna), one of the three modes of perversions (s. vipallāsa). Unwholesome consciousness (akusala citta), rooted in greed, may be either with or without wrong views (ditthigata-sampayutta or vippayutta); s. Dhs.; Tab I.

On right view (sammā-ditthi), s. magga and M.9 (Trans. with Com. in 'R. Und.').
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm

with metta
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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby MayaRefugee » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Why must a wrong view entail clinging? I might have the view that tomorrow will be a sunny day based on a 7-day weather forecast that I saw 6 days ago. I might then see a revised weather forecast that says tomorrow will in fact by very rainy. I would adjust my view to reflect the updated information. I would not cling to the original view because I can see it is unlikely to be true.


Wouldn't this wrong view you can easily swap for the right view just be a changing of the mask the clinging behind that view wears i.e. the clinging inherent in the view that the weather forecast is something worthy of devoting attention to/believing in?

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:02 pm

Hi retrofuturist,

1. All (wrong) views are "view-clinging".

Thanks for showing that argument 1 is not clear as originally stated. Here I try to re-state it in a form which precludes such an objection.

1. For the term "ditthi" as used in the five nikayas:
a) The term "ditthi" in the plural (views) always means ditth'upadana (view-clinging).
b) The phrase "miccha-ditthi" (wrong views - plural) always means ditth'upadana (view-clinging).

What I mean is that there are no views, or wrong views, which are not a form of clinging, except, of course, view or right view (always singular). I understand right view to mean "knowing and seeing things as they really are", and therefore the
opposite of delusion.

The way that "ditthi" is used in the Pali is very different from the way that belief or view is used in English.

Your example of a "reasonable belief" which is changed according to the latest information would be included in "right view" ( even if it turns out to be false ).

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby seanpdx » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:32 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi retrofuturist,

1. All (wrong) views are "view-clinging".

Thanks for showing that argument 1 is not clear as originally stated. Here I try to re-state it in a form which precludes such an objection.

1. For the term "ditthi" as used in the five nikayas:
a) The term "ditthi" in the plural (views) always means ditth'upadana (view-clinging).
b) The phrase "miccha-ditthi" (wrong views - plural) always means ditth'upadana (view-clinging).

What I mean is that there are no views, or wrong views, which are not a form of clinging, except, of course, view or right view (always singular). I understand right view to mean "knowing and seeing things as they really are", and therefore the
opposite of delusion.

The way that "ditthi" is used in the Pali is very different from the way that belief or view is used in English.

Your example of a "reasonable belief" which is changed according to the latest information would be included in "right view" ( even if it turns out to be false ).

Best wishes, Vincent.


You should definitely read this if you haven't:

"The Notion of Diṭṭhi in Theravāda Buddhism: The point of view", Paul Fuller

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:40 pm

Hi everyone,

I am not able to read Pali, so my argument here about the difference between the singular and plural uses of "ditthi" rely on the opinions of Maurice Walshe. The following is from : Thus Have I Heard, The Long Discourses of the Buddha, Wisdom
Publications, London, 1987.

The index entry for right view, on page 647 reads:
View, Right (samma-ditthi, N.B. singular!), 25, 22.21, n.708
This is followed by :
Views (ditthi), n.244, n.708

Note 708 [ on Right View ] reads:
Samma-ditthi. This, or 'Right Seeing' is the literal rendering ... Ditthi here is a singular, and denotes 'seeing things as they really are', whereas 'views' in the plural are always wrong. It should be noted that when not prefixed by the word samma,
ditthi means 'speculative opinions', and the like, which are not based on 'seeing things as they really are'...

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby vinasp » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:21 pm

Hi everyone,

One of the things that I am trying to say here is that 'ditthi' need not have been translated as view(s). But because ditthi singular means the opposite of ditthi plural there is no word in English that could render it correctly. When we find ditthi plural it means delusions. When we find ditthi singular it means justified beliefs.

Translation is often very difficult and will never be perfect. Usually, certain rules or conventions are followed. For example, only one English word to render each Pali word.

Some followers of Theravada seem to think that one should "give up all views". They can quote passages which appear to say this. Do they mean give up all beliefs? Is such a thing possible? In my opinion those passages are speaking about giving up all delusions.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:16 pm

Hi Vinasp

The main aspect of the definition of a wrong view is that it is part of someone's imagination- ie- it is a flight of fancy which occurred due to a clinging/craving of some sort to one of the five aggregates.

Right view occurs with direct experiencing- ie- not a flight of fancy- but direct knowledge of things as they really are (through vipassana), without the interjection/projection of our biases onto reality.

It is possible to cling to right view as well- this is why it is said that one must give up clinging to the dhamma as well.
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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby ground » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:52 am

rowyourboat wrote:Right view occurs with direct experiencing- ie- not a flight of fancy- ...

It is possible to cling to right view as well-

To me there appears a contradiction between the definition of right view and the asserted possibility to cling to right view so defined.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:14 am

Hi TMingyur

Why cant we cling to right view? A stream entrant (who has attained right view) still has cravings and aversions. He may not cling to a self view, but he can cling to a view quite easily. As long as cravings and aversions are in the picture there will be clinging to all things. Right view does indeed give cause not to cling- seeing anicca, dukkha and anatta. But obtaining right view (as in the case of the stream entrant) does not, in one sweep, eliminate clinging, but it would attenuated to varying degrees I suppose.

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Re: What is view-craving?

Postby ground » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:38 am

rowyourboat wrote:Hi TMingyur

Why cant we cling to right view?

The contradiction that appears to me between the explanation of the cause of right view "occurs with direct experiencing" given by you and the asserted possibility to cling to it does not negate our habits. A contradiction that appears between two concepts of course refers to these static concepts only.
It depends what you refer to with "can" in "why can't we". Of course someone who is ill can display symptoms of this illness.

rowyourboat wrote:But obtaining right view (as in the case of the stream entrant) does not, in one sweep, eliminate clinging,

So you seem to refer to "can" as implied: Taking the medicine only once does not necessarily eliminate the illness although the medicine and the illness appear to be incompatible (i.e. "contradictory").

Kind regards


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