Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

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Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:47 am

Greetings,

Has anyone read the following Mahayana Sutra?

Shurangama Sutta (Mahayana)
http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama/shura ... ntents.asp

Do you believe it contains anything of benefit or interest to a Theravada practitioner?

(If we can set aside polemnical debates, "Hinayana" and such it would be greatly appreciated... I just want to focus on the Dhamma aspect).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:01 am

Oh, yes. Everyone should mumble its mantra.

Why do you ask?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:04 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Why do you ask?


I was advised by a Mahayana practitioner that it might provide some guidance on the direct observation of anattata.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Why do you ask?


I was advised by a Mahayana practitioner that it might provide some guidance on the direct observation of anattata.

That is true, if you read the whole thing, which is best to do it in one sitting, then you will be left with the realization that a precious period of time has passed, never to be regained and that you are older and closer to your death, and there will be the realization that watching your breath is time better spent as a way of understanding by direct experience the three marks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:37 am

tisk tisk

yet still funny
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby Dan74 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:32 am

Your thread and Tilt's comments have made me want to read it. It's been gathering dust on the shelf long enough!

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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:02 am

Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Your thread and Tilt's comments have made me want to read it. It's been gathering dust on the shelf long enough!


If you find some parts you think you be of interest, can you post them here?

As the whole thing is pretty long (as is often the way with Mahayana Sutras) I'd like to be pretty specific and focused with the sections addressed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:As the whole thing is pretty long (as is often the way with Mahayana Sutras) I'd like to be pretty specific and focused with the sections addressed.
I am assuming that you were given this info on ZFI; ask the person who suggested it. Having slogged through it years ago, I would have to say I found it forgetable.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:09 am

Greetings Tilt,

I'll get Dan74 to filter it for me.

He seems keen to get stuck into it!

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby Dan74 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Your thread and Tilt's comments have made me want to read it. It's been gathering dust on the shelf long enough!


If you find some parts you think you be of interest, can you post them here?

As the whole thing is pretty long (as is often the way with Mahayana Sutras) I'd like to be pretty specific and focused with the sections addressed.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Will do! Might take me a week or two though...

Then again I might come up with nothing upon "filtering." That's what reading the Heart Sutra for the first time was like. Which is kind of the point, but I missed it then :jumping:


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:13 am

Brilliant - thanks Dan!

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:16 am

Just a note, the Shurangama Sutra should not to be confused with the Shurangamasamadhi Sutra, which is an early text important in Ch'an.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:Just a note, the Shurangama Sutra should not to be confused with the Shurangamasamadhi Sutra, which is an early text important in Ch'an.


Sure about the order there?

Actually, probably the other way around:
the later Surangama Sutra (T 945) (the one which if relatively popular and well known in the present day and age) is much more important to Chan starting from the Tang dynasty, than the earlier Surangamasamadhi Sutra (T 642, T643) which was not so important for any school, really, (and which is largely unknown at present).
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:45 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just a note, the Shurangama Sutra should not to be confused with the Shurangamasamadhi Sutra, which is an early text important in Ch'an.


Sure about the order there?

Actually, probably the other way around:
the later Surangama Sutra (T 945) (the one which if relatively popular and well known in the present day and age) is much more important to Chan starting from the Tang dynasty, than the earlier Surangamasamadhi Sutra (T 642, T643) which was not so important for any school, really, (and which is largely unknown at present).
Not what I have read, but then I can't remember who said that, maybe Lamotte, but then, when it really comes down to it, I really do not care.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby BlackBird » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 am

This thread brought a smile to my otherwise drab day :)

Thank you.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:30 pm

BlackBird wrote:This thread brought a smile to my otherwise drab day :)

Thank you.

metta
Jack


My thoughts exactly!
Now, back to that drab day...
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutta" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:37 am

Dan74 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:Your thread and Tilt's comments have made me want to read it. It's been gathering dust on the shelf long enough!


If you find some parts you think you be of interest, can you post them here?

As the whole thing is pretty long (as is often the way with Mahayana Sutras) I'd like to be pretty specific and focused with the sections addressed.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Will do! Might take me a week or two though...
So, how is that going for you?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:10 am

..it left him with an empty feeling?

ok..bad pun
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby Dan74 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:44 pm

still a fair way to go...

will be another two weeks probably (a busy time at work with the start of semeseter approaching)
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Re: Mahayana's "Shurangama Sutra" - any use to a Theravadin?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:21 pm

For those who are inclined to read Mahayana sutras, probably a better read than the eponymous sutra of this thread is the earlier Surangama_Samadhi_Sutra, which has decent and recent translation online:

http://lirs.ru/lib/sutra/Surangama_Sama ... 25-III.pdf

The Lamotte translation would be worth having, not only for its translation but also for all its scholarly apparatus, which is available for 14 pounds.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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