Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Tex
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Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by Tex »

Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to any Buddhist or non-Buddhist.

Now, what is the Theravadin consensus on the sutras and their origin? Authentic Dhamma? Apocryphal? Perhaps a bit of both, as the Dhamma spread from one land to another and encountered other existant cultural traditions?

I really haven't read many sutras and would be curious to hear other Theravadins' takes...
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sutras? Do you mean Mahayana sutras? Or do you mean the Pali suttas?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Tex
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by Tex »

Sutras.

I.e., the authenticity of the suttas is not in question among Theravadins as far as I know, but what do most make of the sutras and their origins?...
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by tiltbillings »

They are obviously not Buddha-word in the same way the Pali suttas can claim to be. As Richard Gombrich states: "I have the greatest difficulty in accepting that the main edifice [of the Pali suttas] is not the work of one genius." The Mahayana sutras in some occasion exhibit deep insight; in other, many others, they present a marked sectarianism, and there is a very obvious position of opposition that characterize much of the Mahayana's development of its signature doctrines.

Paul Williams' BUDDHIST THOUGHT, chapter 3, give an excellent discussion of the origins of the Mahayana and its texts.

Another book of interest is Text as Father: Paternal Seductions in Early Mahayana Buddhist Literature, by Alan Cole. Here is what someone (WML) who has said on e-sangha:
The author analyzes the Mahayana sutras as works of literature constructed with very purposeful polemical agendas.

The threats of hell in the sutras are a direct consequence of the fact that the religion can only lay claims to authority on the basis of its texts. In other words, since Mahayana has no historical lineage to the Buddha himself, and since the bodhisattva ideal is unverifiable in the present life, the text itself must be made into an idol--an object of blind faith and worship.

The psychological manipulations engineered within these sutras are too numerous to describe here, but the author of the book performs what seems like a pretty comprehensive analysis.

The intense Buddhist fundamentalism in these sutras ("believe this text or you'll go to hell") is so utterly contrary to the spirit of the Kalama sutta; but this makes perfect sense because any tradition lacking historical or pragmatic claims to veracity must have textual claims instead. A textual claim to truth can only be founded upon a fundamentalism of sorts.

One can observe some interesting similarities in technique between the Mahayana sutras and the Book of Mormon. (Both arose lacking claims grounded in historical reality or empirical pragmatism.) As such, both of these attempt to gain confidence from the reader through emotional manipulation. This manipulation especially operates through techniques that cause the reader to feel as though they possess a profound personal relationship or connection with the text itself (hence the book's name "Text as Father"). This sort of polemical technique is epitomized at the end of the Book of Mormon, which says (to paraphrase): "If anyone is unsure about the truth of this book, then let them pray to God and God will tell them the answer." (I have to admit this made me both laugh and cry a little bit inside when I first became aware of it...)

Really, if anyone is interested in understanding the early Mahayana tradition from a polemical and psychological point of view, "Text as Father" is strongly recommended.
The comments about the Kalama Sutta and Mormon seems to be the commentator's own, not from Cole's.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by Ben »

Hi Tex
Further to Tilt's first comment regarding Gombrich's comment...
I recommend you read Gombrich's work: 'How Buddhism Began: the conditioned genesis of the early teachings'. Considering your question, I think you would find it quite interesting.
Kind regards

Ben
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tex,

I've changed the subject of your topic in the interests of clarity.

My answer is that they were required to justify the Mahayana world view.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by Cittasanto »

I find the Sutras to be Post canon, and some of the Suttas could be called that also, but not by far as many.
some of the Sutras are useful, and others are far from useful

EDIT before final posting

just went to post and retros response came up before I could finally post it, I would agree with his also
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by jcsuperstar »

didnt i ask this already? or was that on the forum before we switched over?

i have a related question, and maybe if you think it needs to be split off you can split it.

but where do these bodhisattvas come from? the guys we know from the pali suttas are in the sutras, but all of a sudden theres these super dudes. are they in the agamas (anyone know?) and are they in hinduism?
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by Cittasanto »

jcsuperstar wrote:didnt i ask this already? or was that on the forum before we switched over?

i have a related question, and maybe if you think it needs to be split off you can split it.

but where do these bodhisattvas come from? the guys we know from the pali suttas are in the sutras, but all of a sudden theres these super dudes. are they in the agamas (anyone know?) and are they in hinduism?
Hi JC
The Bodhisattas are in Theravada and is a term used by the buddha to describe himself before enlightenment, I do suppose it is an all inclusive term engulfing all the stages of the path before Nibbana. There is a Boddhisatta Vow in Theravada also but itis to become the next Buddha not the same as the Mahayana Version.
This is from memory and I don't think it is 100% accurate, I know more about the Mahayana version
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by jcsuperstar »

i wasnt asking about the idea of the bodhisatta or bodhisatva, but about the bodhisattvas in the sutras those specific guys manjushri, avolektishvara, etc
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings JC,

I think that's closely related enough to the topic to stay in this thread.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by Element »

tiltbillings wrote:The Mahayana sutras in some occasion exhibit deep insight...
:reading:
Element

Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the sutras?

Post by Element »

I think to understand the origin of something we can look at the result. The origin will be in the result.

For example, dukkha. It is obvious the origin is ignorance given dukkha is undesirable yet it occurs. People clearly can only hurt and harm themselves from ignorance. One could not hurt and harm themselves from an origin of wisdom because not one being truely seeks to hurt & harm themselves. Even a sucidial person is seeking to escape their pain. If they could end their pain using another method, they would not try suicide.

Similary, the result of Mahayana Buddhism was a slave culture in Tibet, where human beings were supressed, enslaved and controlled by monastic masters in collusion with the ruling elite using a collection of non-Buddhist beliefs, superstitions & rituals.

Therefore, when we examine the end, we will find the origin. When we examine the result, we will find the intention.

With metta

Element
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by tiltbillings »

Similary, the result of Mahayana Buddhism was a slave culture in Tibet, where human beings were supressed, enslaved and controlled by monastic masters in collusion with the ruling elite using a collection of non-Buddhist beliefs, superstitions & rituals.
Chinese Communists would like to say this sort of thing, but I suspect it is not quite stark as that. But is it any more fair to blame Theravada Buddhism for the ugly and large sex trade and the ongoing illegal child sex slavery in Thailand? And let us not forget that Thailand had been a slave culture in to at least the 19th century.
Therefore, when we examine the end, we will find the origin. When we examine the result, we will find the intention.


So, following your "logic," the intention of the Mahayana was slavery.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Theravadins' thoughts on the origin of the Mahayana sutras?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Element,

That's a pretty stupid comment. What about the Burmese junta? What do they do to those who follow the Theravadin path.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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