Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
DorjePhurba wrote:Could anyone offer any advice because I'm not sure how to make a good decision here?
Why not do anapanasati and thereby do both? Samatha and vipassana complement each other in the pursuit of samadhi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
meindzai
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by meindzai »

I agree with Retro. Personally I think there is a bit too much made of vipassana vs. samatha as a style of meditation. They are qualities of mind, not methods. Some techniques will emphasise one aspect more than the other - so vipassana methods are ok, but I think insight comes out of a mind that is settled, and a mind that is settled comes from sila. (And I believe that the best way to practice sila is to "sit down and shut up" but that's my opinion).

-M
seanpdx
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by seanpdx »

Yeah, what retro and meindzai said... =)
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by PeterB »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,
DorjePhurba wrote:Could anyone offer any advice because I'm not sure how to make a good decision here?
Why not do anapanasati and thereby do both? Samatha and vipassana complement each other in the pursuit of samadhi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Exactly. Not only did my Theravada teachers hold that view, but so did Trungpa Rinpoche.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,
DorjePhurba wrote:Could anyone offer any advice because I'm not sure how to make a good decision here?
Why not do anapanasati and thereby do both? Samatha and vipassana complement each other in the pursuit of samadhi.

Metta,
Retro
What do you mean by samadhi?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by samadhi?
As per this...

AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by samadhi?
As per this...

AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.
In other words:
Kenshou wrote:But the suttic/earlier jhana most likely is not a state of complete absorption, completely secluded from the senses and thrown into a trance. It's a practical method of calming and sharpening the mind in order to utilize it for the gaining of insight, as well as helping to wean the mind off of sensual pleasures and help dull the emotional aspect of dukkha, and with this calm clear mind, work on the wisdom that will get rid of the root causes of dukkha as well, which can be done while in the jhana (Look at the Anupada Sutta for an example of Sariputta doing just that). In other words, samatha and vipassana can be practiced in tandem, no need for the split.
Or what is called in the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita tradition vipassana jhanas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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BlackBird
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by BlackBird »

Few posts back there was some talk about two wings of a bird.

I'd like to point everyone who has 20 minutes up their sleeve to 'Wings of the Eagle' - Ven. Ajahn Jayasaro. Pretty good, relevant stuff.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
meindzai
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by meindzai »

BTW, this whole thing is why I theorized in my earlier thread that really what "technique" you do doesn't even matter that much. Just as long as you are doing something, and as long as, in the beginning, you are doing it consistently. And the more the better. Yeah, I know, if you have time to be mindful.... :tongue: Still - I have tried the "everything is meditation" attitude and it doesn't seem to be as effective as "just stop watching TV and do more meditation already."

Anyway, from reading so many suttas where the Buddha talked about a bhikkhu going out into the forest and attaining Jhana, it always seemed to follow from virtuous activity, not the technique he was doing.

-DaveK (Babbly from being snowed in at work for 3 days)
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by DorjePhurba »

I have to say that I am glad that many of you have responded to my question. As far as how IFeel at the moment I think I'm leaning more towards trying to attain jhana since it does seem that gaining insigjt is best done through jhanic concentration. I think the main thing that has confused me is the tradition of the Vissudimagga. I just don't see that as something that conforms with the suttas. It seems that is the main reason why people do
not practice jhana more. People are told its basically out of reach for them, which seems to be untrue.

I'm curious though as to whether the vipassana jhanas could he considered the same as the suttic jhanas. Could anyone provide any insight? (no pun intended)

Meindzai, I would say that what medotation style you choose carries quite a bit of importance because it really determines which way your practice will go. If you are trying to attain jhana, then you need to keep your mind focused on an object and to be mindful of any hindrances. Should any arise, then the meditator applys the antidotes to get rid of them. If one were doing Vipassana alone, then a person might focus on the three marks of existence in each thought thay arises rather than focus on one thought. Both have their usefulness, but I think lead to different places.

I look forward to everyones continued input as I think this is a question that a lot of people are asking themselves too.

With metta,
Chris
meindzai
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by meindzai »

DorjePhurba wrote:
Meindzai, I would say that what medotation style you choose carries quite a bit of importance because it really determines which way your practice will go. If you are trying to attain jhana, then you need to keep your mind focused on an object and to be mindful of any hindrances. Should any arise, then the meditator applys the antidotes to get rid of them.
In theory, yes, and I'm not trying to be confusing or contradictory. I'm just going through a period right now where I'm noticing that antidotes/techniques etc. seem to be of secondary importance to the time spent meditating and ones actions (sila) outside of meditation. Granted, I'm not a great example of either lately. :thinking:

I certainly don't want to confuse somebody who is trying to figure out which technique to follow - but if I had realized earlier on the false distinction between "samatha practice" and "vipassana practice" I probably would have spent more time actually meditating and less time worrying about which technique to do.

-M
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Collective
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by Collective »

What are the different techniques of Samhadi (or do I mean Shamatha?) and Vipassana?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

DorjePhurba wrote: I think the main thing that has confused me is the tradition of the Vissudimagga. I just don't see that as something that conforms with the suttas.
Depends upon what you mean by jhana. As this thread, itself shows, there is a wide variety of opinions as to what jhana means and as to how it used, as this link http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows. The question becomes whose model of the jhanas do you follow? If you question the Visuddhimagga, then you probably would not want to follow those who use that model.
It seems that is the main reason why people do not practice jhana more. People are told its basically out of reach for them, which seems to be untrue.
I have heard that from a number of people, including really old, traditionally educated Thai monks. Is it from the Visuddhimagga? Don't know, but don't think so. Interestingly it was a direct student and approved teacher of Mahasi Sayadaw that taught me jhana, and he stated that jhana meditation was not lost;' rather, the level of concentration necessary for insight does not require the full one-pointedness of concentration that increasingly blocks out thoughts and bodily sensations. Certainly that kind of practice is possible and can be useful.
I'm curious though as to whether the vipassana jhanas could he considered the same as the suttic jhanas. Could anyone provide any insight? (no pun intended)
I believe the idea of vipassana jhanas comes from Ven U Pandita, Mahasi Saydaw’s direct successor. Take a look at chapters 26 and 27 in this book by Ven U Pandita: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/path-free.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The point is that the Mahasi Sayadaw/Ven U Pandita methods are not as “dry” as they are sometimes characterized by both their detractors, or even their advocates. Samatha and vipassana go hand-in-hand from the vipassana side of things. One can develop concentration without developing insight practice, but one cannot develop insight practice without developing considerable samatha/concentration.
If one were doing Vipassana alone, then a person might focus on the three marks of existence in each thought thay arises rather than focus on one thought. Both have their usefulness, but I think lead to different places.
In the vipassana practice of the Mahasi Sayadaw traditions, one needs not “focus on the three marks of existence in each thought”; rather, one simply watches the rise and fall of whatever comes into awareness. As U Pandita shows in his book, this can develop a considerable level of concentration, but it is one that allows the nature of experience to be seen without the application conceptual structures.

If a hindrance arises: "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' He understands how the arising of the non-arisen sensuality comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen sensuality comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sensuality comes to be [Satipatthana Sutta].

This not an intellectual, “contemplative,” process. It is, rather, 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. See these three suttas:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These three suttas give a good idea of the suttas that support the Mahasi Sayadaw/U Pandita type of vipassana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by jcsuperstar »

tilt, i always value your contributions, your erudition never ceases to amaze me.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Shamatha or Vipassana? That is the question

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote:tilt, i always value your contributions, your erudition never ceases to amaze me.
Thank you, he said blushing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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