what the buddha taught

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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby baratgab » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:08 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I have quoted this before but one of the Ajahns trained by Luang Por Chah told me that Luang Por once said to him. "Until your practice has brought you three times to the edge of despair, it hasnt properly started."
Many of us are hard nuts to crack. We need strong nut crackers. Fortunately life is usually ready to supply them.


Quite true, but this doesn't mean (for me, at least) that we have to encourage, support or maintain suffering. Suffering just happens naturally as we go along the path, due to our defilements; not due to the dhamma, I would say. My humble guess is that Ajahn Chah said this precisely to encourage peace, acceptance and appreciation towards the suffering, which is the dhamma, leading to calm and happiness. :smile:

The view that one needs rough self-discipline, and it is all-right to suffer from that is a different thing, I think. As I understand it, the need for self-discipline arises precisely from the lack of kindness towards the mind and body. Kindness towards the mind and body creates agreeable conditions from which the mind doesn't crave to escape, rendering self-discipline unnecessary, leading to calm and happy states. This is how it can be a path without groaning. :P

This was not a reply to me, but it occurred to me that it is good to express these thoughts on peace. :anjali:
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:39 pm

All we need do baratgab is not anaethesise ourselves. Dukkha will do what it does best. I have not seen anyone mention self discipline per se until you did. Just openess to what is anyway the case.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:56 pm

Greetings Sanghamitta,

Sanghamitta wrote:All we need do baratgab is not anaethesise ourselves


I'm pretty sure somewhere there's a sutta (which of course I can't find right now) which says that for some people the path may be slow, and for some the path may be quick. For some the path may be painful, and for some the path may be pleasant. (Thereby adding up to 2X2 possible combinations)

There's many ways to skin a cat.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby baratgab » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:I'm pretty sure somewhere there's a sutta (which of course I can't find right now) which says that for some people the path may be slow, and for some the path may be quick. For some the path may be painful, and for some the path may be pleasant. (Thereby adding up to 2X2 possible combinations


I think the scriptures give enough reason to consider that eventually everyone have to surrender to those nasty pleasures. :tongue: I tend to ponder nowadays about the possibility that accepting happiness might be a much critical point than as we usually recognize it, and it might be much more of a relevant problem in our age than as we usually think.

:popcorn:

Maha-Saccaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities ...

... I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby adosa » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sanghamitta,

Sanghamitta wrote:All we need do baratgab is not anaethesise ourselves


I'm pretty sure somewhere there's a sutta (which of course I can't find right now) which says that for some people the path may be slow, and for some the path may be quick. For some the path may be painful, and for some the path may be pleasant. (Thereby adding up to 2X2 possible combinations)

There's many ways to skin a cat.

Metta,
Retro. :)


It's in the Mahadhammasamadana Sutta. MN 46


Bhikkhus, what is the observance that is unpleasant now and brings pleasant results in the future. Here, a certain one with displeasure abstains from destroying living things and on account of it experiences unpleasantness. With displeasure abstains from taking what is not given and experiences unpleasantness. With displeasure abstains from misbehaviour in sexuality and experiences unpleasantness.With displeasure abstains from telling lies and experiences unpleasantness.With displeasure abstains from telling malicious things and on account of it experiences unpleasantaness. With displeasure abstains from talking roughly and on account of it experiences unpleasantness. With displeasure abstains from talking frivolously and experiences unpleasantness. With displeasure abstains from coveting and experiences unpleasantness. With displeasure abstains from bearing an angry mind and experiences unpleasantness.With displeasure maintains right view and on account of it experiences unpleasantness. He after death goes to increase and is born in heaven. This is the observance that is unpleasant now and brings pleasant results in the future.


http://www.vipassana.info/046-mahadhamm ... tta-e1.htm

adosa :smile:
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

I guess, the great gift that suffering can bring (if we allow it to) is humility. It chews us up and spits us out and the end product has cracks in the illusory self. We tend to fill those in pretty quickly though.

But certainly I've seen people (and myself) going through very tough times but at the same time so brilliantly free of the usual BS... There can be a depth to suffering, a reflection that is as natural as it is pure.

On the other hand, mostly we tend to get reactive, spouting anger and blame, or seeking vengeance like that big poster that stares at me every day when I leave home (A Law Abiding Citizen).

_/|\_

PS A little Zen note (caveat lector!) in koan or hua-tou training, "suffering" is cultivated in the sense of bringing the practitioner to the edge of despair as one struggles to find the answer to the question that absorbs the questioner completely, but the answer only comes when one lets go clutching at all straws including oneself. It's the brilliant sunshine that comes after every last trick has been exhausted, every subterfuge rejected, every notion demolished, and every bit of hope has died. Nothing left to hold on to. So the house-builder gives up!
_/|\_
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:18 am

A small aside:

Dan74 wrote:A little Zen note (caveat lector!) in koan or hua-tou training, "suffering" is cultivated in the sense of bringing the practitioner to the edge of despair as one struggles to find the answer to the question that absorbs the questioner completely, but the answer only comes when one lets go clutching at all straws including oneself. It's the brilliant sunshine that comes after every last trick has been exhausted, every subterfuge rejected, every notion demolished, and every bit of hope has died. Nothing left to hold on to. So the house-builder gives up!
Tent Revival salvation comes when the penitent, the miserable sinner, sinks into the depths of despair in fear of losing his or her soul to the devil. It is through letting go of one's self-centered sinful and willful ways, giving oneself over completely to Jesus, letting Jesus fill one's heart is salvation found.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:56 am

Except where is shamatha and vipassana in this?

In koan meditation there are both.

_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:05 am

Dan74 wrote:Except where is shamatha and vipassana in this?

In koan meditation there are both.

_/|\_
Is there? Where?

Actually, I am not arguing one way or another concerning koan meditation, but it is interesting that a similar dynamic seems to be at play in these very different religious experiences in terms of context, and I have seen koan practice criticized in these terms.

Also, traditionally before koans became a meditation practice, the participants in the koan dialogues where higfhly learned in Buddhist philosophical tenets, and the koan represented a doctrinal insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Dan74 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:26 am

I disagree with you last line - it was not a doctrinal insight, it was a direct insight. "Doctrinal insight" to me means intellectual understanding, this was direct understanding.

_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:30 am

Dan74 wrote:I disagree with you last line - it was not a doctrinal insight, it was a direct insight. "Doctrinal insight" to me means intellectual understanding, this was direct understanding.
To clarify: Direct understanding of a particular aspect a particular doctrine was pointing to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Euclid » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:23 am

If I recall correctly, it was Ajahn Chah who said:

If you haven't wept deeply, you haven't begun to meditate


:lol:
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:34 am

Indeed but there are always those who would prefer to think that we can go past the soup and main and straight to the pudding.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby Thai_Theravada » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:39 am

Buddha taught the way to getting the the "Truth"

The Truth that not depend on time

The Truth that must have see only by yourself
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby termite » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:28 am

appicchato wrote:
baratgab wrote:That the true path is free from torture, free from groaning and free from suffering.


Sorry...the path is full of torture, groaning, and suffering...it's only when one is liberated that these things are eliminated...then the path has been followed to the end (and the goal has been reached)...i.e. no more path...

My read anyway...


I'm guessing it's going to hurt even more if you step off the path before you get past the thorn bushes. ;)
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Re: what the buddha taught

Postby catmoon » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:33 am

Hiya Katersy!


I feel perfectly guiltless in my practice of cherry-picking the Dharma. I view it as a cherry tree in which some cherries are ripe and others are not. In time maybe I will see them all ripen: I do not know.

If a teaching or practice aggravates my depression, triggers anxieties or anger, then I drop it like a hot coal, or at least examine it very very carefully.

If a teaching seems in harmony with what I can demonstrate, with the beautiful flow of the teachings of lamas and ajahns and venerables, that I keep, adopt, and try to work with.

So my guiding principle is harmony, supported by analysis. Things that pass these tests I tend to regard as originating with the Buddha, although certainty is still far off.
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