Breath Focusing and Staying Present

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Collective
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Collective »

baratgab wrote:He said that even the effort of watching the breath is surplus, since if one settles the body and mind the awareness naturally shifts to the only motion, the breath; and this is the main reason why the Buddha taught breath meditation
Again, very similar to what I was saying about just being aware, and being aware of being aware. I can't get my head around the fact that watching the breath is a 'mind activity' - I find it easier to just be aware, of the moment, of anything and everything. It's like, when I'm aware of the breath, I'm not aware of anything else.

When I become aware of the mind, and not the breath, I find less mind chatter and deeper levels of meditation. Neverthless I focus on the breath because that's what others recommend.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Goofaholix »

You can't be aware of the breath in the past, you can't be aware of the breath in the future, you can only be aware of the breath in the present moment. So breath awareness is present moment awareness by definition. Think of breath awareness as using training wheels, or an anchor, it's a good idea to master this before you go onto broader/looser techniques.

You may choose to narrow your awareness to the breath to the exclusion of other things, this is good if your mind is untrained and tends to wander all over the place.

You may choose to expand your awareness to include anything or everything that comes through your 6 sense doors, this is good if you can do it and maintain it. This does not mean you focus on your surroundings, it means you expand your awareness to the contact all your senses have with your surroundings. The distinction is important, for example you aren't so much interested in a sound and who is making it and why, you are interested that hearing is taking place.

I think focus is never the right word to use, unless you are interested in concentration rather than insight, even then it's really about letting go rather than focus.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
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Freawaru
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Freawaru »

Collective wrote:Breath Focussing and Staying Present.

I'm still a bit unsure about the breath focusing - seems to me that when I'm focusing on my breath, I can't also be focusing on the present moment. For example, when I foucus on my breath, the surrounding environment seems to fade. It's as if I get tunnel vison and all I have as far as awareness goes is the breath, the whole breath, and nothin but the breath (to coin a phrase).
Hi Collective,

don't know what you are complaining about. You are doing it right. Approaching samadhi.

Concentration has this effect. Any concentration. That is why it is called concentration, focus. Like a lens. One pointedness. One excludes what one does not want (at the moment). Think of watching TV or reading a book. Have you noticed how everything else seems absent while we are absorbed in something we like? Even physical pain is reduced or absent when I am watching a good movie. This is the effect you want to reach samadhi.

However, watching TV is not samadhi. Why not? Because while we are absorbed in a good movie we are not aware of the absence of physical pain, everyday thoughts or monkey mind distractions. We are absorbed but only after leaving the absorption we realise that we had been in one. That there HAD been no pain, no thoughts, no distractions. The past. And this is the important difference to samadhi. During samadhi one knows that one IS in an absorption, that pain (etc) IS absent, right NOW, in the present. One is aware. A very specific awareness.

This very specific awareness is called sampajanna and is used for mindfulness meditation. Because it is able to discern in the present whatever happens. It can be prolonged to non-samadhi states like into normal wake (which will make watching a movie also a meditation practice), into dream, deep sleep and so on. With it one is able to know what is going on in mind and body the moment it happens, thus being able to practice discernment in the four foundations of mindfulness not only on the cushion but the whole time.

As others have already written: just keep going in this way. :clap:
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baratgab
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by baratgab »

Collective wrote:Again, very similar to what I was saying about just being aware, and being aware of being aware. I can't get my head around the fact that watching the breath is a 'mind activity' - I find it easier to just be aware, of the moment, of anything and everything. It's like, when I'm aware of the breath, I'm not aware of anything else.

When I become aware of the mind, and not the breath, I find less mind chatter and deeper levels of meditation. Neverthless I focus on the breath because that's what others recommend.
I believe that the deliberate effort to focus on the breath could easily serve as a cause of disturbance. If I may say so, this is like putting a fence around an animal: Even if the animal was comfortable and relaxed about residing in a certain spot, now he starts to feel agitated, becomes wild and wants to break out. Similarly, a mind that is forced to reside on the breath (or anything else) feels agitated, becomes wild and wants to break out. If you give a broad field to the mind, it settles down and becomes relaxed much more easily. And the place of settlement is most likely the breath, because, as we mentioned, it is the most prominent activity while sitting (Ajahn Sucitto also pointed out the same phenomena in a talk).

Previously I used to meditate with the method of forcing the awareness on the breath, and because of this the first stages of meditation were always rather loathsome. I had to "break in" the mind with force every time, by maintaining this forceful awareness until my "concentration" became so strong that I started to feel the ease of one-pointedness. Literally, I was raping the mind; quite nasty business... :shock: In this way even though I had pleasant experience with meditation, I managed to build up a lot of "bad meditation kamma": I was very nervous about starting a meditation session, more and more force was needed to meditate, and eventually I ended up postponing and skipping meditation. Of course this might be one of the extreme examples, which was due to the kammic aggregate of roughness and willpower in my mind.

So, my priorities have shifted since then. Nowadays I would much rather "get nowhere" with meditation while being gentle and friendly, than to use force and "get somewhere". But usually I get at least to the same stages with this approach. :smile:
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
Terasi
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Terasi »

baratgab wrote: Hi Guy. :smile: Did you listened to Ajahn Brahm's last 9 day retreat talks? If not, I think they are definitely worth listening. It seems that the Ajahn improved his technique of "letting go", or rather the way of teaching it. Now he emphasized that there is no need to any sort of effort;
Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I find this thread very interesting.
Baratgab, the link is broken, may I know where else can I get this talk please? Or at least the title of the talk to search.

I am very new at meditation, but I have been suspecting that once I reach a certain moment of "opening the door to concentration", watching the breath has made me lost focus because I try to "force" the mind. As the OT said, sometimes just sitting there letting it go and ignore the breath (while still hearing traffic outside, or night birds, or any other soft noise) makes me feel calmer and more "at present". I guess it's because this delinquent mind revenges by trying to regulate the breath rather than just watching. I probably should just continue the forcing thing, but I really want to know what's in Ajahn Brahm's talk.
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by jcsuperstar »

I'd also like to get those talks.

also Terasi , there are many ways to watch the breath, and many places to focus your attention on it. rising and falling of the abdomen, the chest, the back, at the nose , mouth, etc. and you don't have to focus super intently either, you can use the breath as an anchor and be aware of the whole body as you breath in and out. you can move attention to different spots on the body with the breath, you can feel breath energies in the body, you can breath in through your pores... there are many many ways to practice anapanasati!!!
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Collective
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Collective »

Ok so they way I see it is; 'focus' on the breath to begin with, stay with it, slowly and gently become 'aware' of your surroundings, and not 'focused' on any one thing. Whatever arises.

If you slip, go back to focusing on the breath.

Rinse repeat as necessary :D
Terasi
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Terasi »

Those are wonderful info, thanks guys.

I feel where the problem is, because I try too hard to just think about one fixed point in my nose, and that's not being gentle to myself. No wonder the mind rebels.
So we are allowed to feel the breath flowing anywhere in my body, and even to become 'aware' of the surroundings, and not 'focused' on any one thing.
That means when I can feel being at present, and can hear soft noises outside, but without any reaction in my mind (just hearing, not listening, no perception, no feeling), then I should still be on the right track.

But if we can have the link to that talk, it will be good. :clap:
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by jcsuperstar »

what method/teacher are you following now?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Collective
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Collective »

jcsuperstar wrote:what method/teacher are you following now?
If directed to me, I suffer from ADD so I keep jumping from Gunaratana and Ajahn Brahm. Right now I'm with Brahm. Tomorrow, who knows :|
फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद »

Maybe I'm the only one who has had this experience, but it took me about 3 or 4 weeks of daily meditation, counting breaths, to actually enter "the present moment" while counting breaths. Now that I have experienced the difference, it seems that what I was doing originally was holding on to the present moment for a very short time, then holding onto the next present moment for a very short time, and nothing much was happening for those few weeks. Then one morning, after about 15 minutes of meditation, I suddenly entered the "real" present moment and realized the only way to be in the present moment is when my awareness flows with time, completely smoothly. No longer do I chase that elusive "present moment" which becomes the past sooner than I can try to grasp it. The present moment is not an infinitesimally short static experience; It is an infinitely smoothly flowing experience of arbitrary duration.

Another way to describe it: Imagine time as a conveyor belt. What I was doing for the first few weeks was trying to walk beside the running belt and match my walking speed as best I could to the speed of the belt. I was walking very calmly and smoothly, touching my hand to the belt and holding it for minutes at a time. It was a decent experience, and I was glad that my effort of keeping up with the moving belt was successful. The day it all changed, however, it felt like I had stepped onto the belt rather than walking next to it. I was still moving at the exact same speed as the belt; It was just much easier, practically effortless, smoother, more natural, more enjoyable.

The human breath is so delicate and beautiful; For a few days now I have experienced great pleasure feeling that incredibly smooth, quiet flow not just in my breath, but many of my movements. I can't always get to this state ("hop onto the belt"); some days it doesn't happen at all, but on average it seems to be getting more frequent and easier, and it gives me so much joy I almost feel mentally insane for deriving so much enjoyment from nothing more than "the quiet and smooth nature of the flow of time and of my own breath." It's like I'm discovering the world in a whole new light.
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cooran
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by cooran »

Hello फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद ,

What does your user name mean in English? How shall we address you?

Perhaps you may find this of interest:
THE BEAUTIFUL BREATH: THE BEGINNING OF THE JOURNEY INTO JHANAS
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... Jhanas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Kenshou
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Kenshou »

फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद
Philip Puashunda?

Having a devanagari name might be problematic if you plan to stick around...
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octathlon
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by octathlon »

फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद wrote:Maybe I'm the only one who has had this experience, but it took me about 3 or 4 weeks of daily meditation, counting breaths, to actually enter "the present moment" while counting breaths. Now that I have experienced the difference, it seems that what I was doing originally was holding on to the present moment for a very short time, then holding onto the next present moment for a very short time, and nothing much was happening for those few weeks. Then one morning, after about 15 minutes of meditation, I suddenly entered the "real" present moment and realized the only way to be in the present moment is when my awareness flows with time, completely smoothly.
Were you still counting breaths when that entrance happened, and then did you stop counting breaths?
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Breath Focusing and Staying Present

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

jcsuperstar wrote: also Terasi , there are many ways to watch the breath, and many places to focus your attention on it. rising and falling of the abdomen, the chest, the back, at the nose , mouth, etc. and you don't have to focus super intently either, you can use the breath as an anchor and be aware of the whole body as you breath in and out. you can move attention to different spots on the body with the breath, you can feel breath energies in the body, you can breath in through your pores... there are many many ways to practice anapanasati!!!
:goodpost:
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