Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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appicchato
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Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by appicchato »

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Ben
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Ben »

Hi Bhante

Unfortunately, this is what I get when I click on your link:
Sorry, the page (or document) you have requested is not available.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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appicchato
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by appicchato »

Hi Ben...but it came up for me in this version...give it a go...
western-monks-presentation5.pdf
(187.31 KiB) Downloaded 534 times
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Guy
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Guy »

Thanks Venerable! :bow: :bow: :bow:
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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tiltbillings
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by tiltbillings »

The comments by Ven Sumedho are quite interesting and can be applied to more than just those who ordain.

Thanks for posting this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Cittasanto »

Thank-you Bhante!

tilt - Sumedho emphasises the samana (renunciate) life, not so much the life of a 'monastic' (fully ordained,) there was a quote regarding the Bhikkhunis (cant remember if it was him or the general WPP sangha) where Ajahn Chah taught in the style of 'good enough' i.e., is this good enough to reach enlightenment . . . and I think that will be what is being emphasised by him there.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ben
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Ben »

Thank you Bhante!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Cittasanto
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Cittasanto »

Quick question,
I have asked this before a while ago but can't remember the responce or the thread it was with to look it up!

footnote 5, as one of many instances says ibid., p... what is ibid??
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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appicchato
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by appicchato »

ibid...short for ibidem (Latin)...'in the same place'...
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Cittasanto
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Cittasanto »

Ah right so all the ibid refferences are to the book, essay etc last mentioned?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
kayy
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by kayy »

Yep, that's right Manapa.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

Thank you for posting this - very interesting and very useful.

Actually, bhante, if you don't mind me asking and only if you feel comfortable speaking on the subject...

As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Cittasanto »

Thanks Kayy for the confirmation! better to know than to be lost :) I have a word doc with all the titbits of useful info from Dhammawheel now so I don't keep asking the same questions which are off topic or having to look for suggested practices others have found useful etc....

It would be very interesting to know of your experiences, or thoughts/what other westerners have expressed, in contrast to the essay bhante!

particularly regarding this section!
Aside from the language and cultural gap, one of the main reasons why Western monks are unable to integrate fully into Thai monastic life is their ideal vision of a universal Buddhism. These Western monks grapple with how to negotiate between the ideal and the real. When they are able to integrate traditional aspects of Buddhism, they do so with a pragmatic attitude.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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appicchato
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by appicchato »

retrofuturist wrote:As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.
Hi Paul,

Out of the gate...I didn't come to Thailand to ordain...I was here more than twenty-five years prior to ordaining...I found the article interesting, although that's about the extent of it...most of it doesn't apply to me, as I don't consider myself converted, constructing (the ideal, as opposed to the real), nor do I consider myself a missionizer (sic)...I didn't have a problem integrating because I'd already 'gone native', more or less...there was no conflict between wants and expectations...and re-integration doesn't apply (yet, and hopefully won't)...probably what struck me most, if anything, was the wants and expectations noted...to me, for anyone considering ordination, those should be on the back burner...way back...off the stove actually...

Be well friend... :thumbsup:

Manapa...I wouldn't be able to comment really because I don't associate with western monks, not by choice, it just doesn't occur...and I have no view of universal Buddhism...I try to go with the flow wherever I am...
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Post by Cittasanto »

appicchato wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.
Hi Paul,

Out of the gate...I didn't come to Thailand to ordain...I was here more than twenty-five years prior to ordaining...I found the article interesting, although that's about the extent of it...most of it doesn't apply to me, as I don't consider myself converted, constructing (the ideal, as opposed to the real), nor do I consider myself a missionizer (sic)...I didn't have a problem integrating because I'd already 'gone native', more or less...there was no conflict between wants and expectations...and re-integration doesn't apply (yet, and hopefully won't)...probably what struck me most, if anything, was the wants and expectations noted...to me, for anyone considering ordination, those should be on the back burner...way back...off the stove actually...

Be well friend... :thumbsup:

Manapa...I wouldn't be able to comment really because I don't associate with western monks, not by choice, it just doesn't occur...and I have no view of universal Buddhism...I try to go with the flow wherever I am...
Hi Bhante!
you actually answered my question perfectly! (underlined the part/s)
maybe not what I was thinking of as a response but very helpful, and something I have been (semi)grappling with recently.

after saying that, there is another part of the essay which springs to mind now, and without going through it again, so using my own words, did you have a sense of coming home when you arrived, and ordained, only one, or both?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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