The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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MayaRefugee
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by MayaRefugee »

I've done a bit of investigating and have come across this:
the term ‘dhamma-niyama’ is used in the commentaries in a way that leans on the sutta expression ‘dhamma-niyaamataa’, which is a synonym for conditionality in the sense that there is an intrinsic necessity of things in nature and the universe.
It was taken from here: http://www.dhivan.net-a.googlepages.com ... sessay.pdf
Dhamma-niyaamataa: that which, as cause, invariably fixes things in our minds, as effects.
This was taken from here: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/distinction.html
'Bhikkhus, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathaagata, this determination of nature (dhamma.t.thitataa), this orderliness of nature [dhamma-niyaamataa] prevails: the relatedness of this to that" [idappaccayataa]'. [S ii. 25].
This was taken from here:http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html

Things in nature, by obeying or acting in accordance with this "intrinsic neccesity", when observed seem to be carrying out an intent or a purpose - I'm probably anthropomorphizing when I observe this - :shrug:

Peace.
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

MayaRefugee wrote: Things in nature, by obeying or acting in accordance with this "intrinsic neccesity", when observed seem to be carrying out an intent or a purpose - I'm probably anthropomorphizing when I observe this - :shrug:
It's useful to remember that according to theravada, it's all conditioned. All things - dhammas (except nibbana) are said to arise based on conditions for a very brief moment and then disappear forever, never to arise again. So, it's a bit irrelevant to speak about a purpose/intent behind a conditioned process, just as it is irrelevant to speak about existence or non-existence of self.

You can read more about the 5 niyamas in The Manual of cosmic order, this is a work by a great Burmese scholar monk Ledi Sayadaw - I think he summarizes the commentarial position on the 5 niyamas there. These are basically 5 laws that have to do with temperature (caloric order) acting as condition for other dhammas, kamma as condition (moral order), etc. Either way, these are just laws, kind of like laws of nature, so it's important not to conceive some sort of a being or intent/design behind them, as one would in a theistic religion. Kind of like gravity, it just works when the appropriate conditions are there for it to work (two bodies with masses), and doesn't need some sentient purpose/intent behind it to work.

Best wishes
MayaRefugee
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by MayaRefugee »

Thanks pt1!

:thumbsup:

It's a very interesting topic and discovering it opened my eyes up to the presence of a "sentience projector" in my mind - I'm always asking what's the reason for or what is the thinking behind things being the way they are - I'm guessing when I understand the 5 niyamas better this will come to an end. When I was young whenever my curiousity had me asking my parents questions they couldn't answer it was always "Gods" doing so that's probably where I got it from.

Anyway, this came about because chownah said "ordinary objects" can be just as insightful/beautiful as "works of art", where are we with this now?

Is it suffice to say temperature can create objects which seem to be at rest that can be insightful/beautiful and an artist can emulate this phenomenon?

:coffee:
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

Good questions. Sorry, I don't have time at the moment, I'll answer you tomorrow as I'd prefer to give you a proper reply rather than just a few rushed sentences.

Best wishes
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Annapurna
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by Annapurna »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hi, Annapurna,
I'm not in any way trying to blackmail anyone or control the thread.
I (really truly) didn't want or plan to say any more about 'God' but when the OP'er asked a direct question I figured, as I said, they had the right ...
:shrug:
Kim
:group:
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Annapurna
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by Annapurna »

MayaRefugee wrote:Kim,

I know you said you don't want to elaborate but isn't the tendency/instinct of nature to strive toward balance/harmony/a certain order indicative of the fact it has an intention/a design/a purpose?

Peace.
We learn that there is no effect without a cause. So cause conditions an effect.

So if we think this through, then we also have to think about this universe.

What caused the universe to go "bang"?

I think here we arrive at the imponderables Buddha spoke if, or in theist religions: "God's inexplicable ways", or in the Tao Te Ching, chapter 1 : The unnameable Tao...
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jcsuperstar
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by jcsuperstar »

since we're in the free for all, and since god has been brought into the equation, pretty much taking it out of a theravada realm i'll add this quote by the Dalai Lama
"This principle [of Buddhism] means that all conditioned things and
events in the universe come into being only as a result of the interaction
of various causes and conditions. This is significant because it precludes
two possibilities. One is the possibility that things can arise from
nowhere, with no causes and conditions, and the second is that things
can arise on account of a transcendent designer or creator. Both these
possibilities are negated." - dalai lama XIV
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

MayaRefugee wrote: It's a very interesting topic
Yes it is. Just a general observation that seems relevant at this point - one of the most useful things I was told was to examine every topic from the perspective of whether it directly helps in reducing greed, hate and delusion, and increasing kindness, generosity and wisdom. I.e. there's a lot of attachment associated with speculative thinking, we just love thinking about this and that, but often, no matter what the answers the thinking leads us to, it still has very little to do with the path to ending suffering. So, choosing the right topics as well as the approaches to considering these topics intellectually is very important. If we're talking buddhism that is. If we're talking science/philosophy/new age, then sure, speculation is all there is.
MayaRefugee wrote: and discovering it opened my eyes up to the presence of a "sentience projector" in my mind - I'm always asking what's the Areason for or what is the thinking behind things being the way they are - I'm guessing when I understand the 5 niyamas better this will come to an end.
At this point it might be useful to understand the difference between buddhism and science for example. Science tends to look outside for answers, how certain outside existing entities or "things" affect other outside "things". Buddhism (at least as I understand it through abhidhamma) on the other hand directs to recognising first that all those outside "things" are are just products of speculative thinking - concepts , so it doesn't really concern with them, but directs us to understand through insight how the mind attaches to these concepts regardless of what they are.

E.g. regardless of whether we're arguing is it god that created the earth, or is it nature that did it, both of these would still be just speculative thinking, and so of no real concern to buddhism. What would be of interest is what are the mental factors and consciousness (so dhammas) that are involved in this speculation - are they wholesome or not? Is the mental factor of concentration at that momnet wholesome or not, how about intention, is there greed, or maybe there's kindness, etc? So these mental factors (dhammas) are basically objects of insight, and buddhism is all about direct insight, not about concepts and speculation (for reference, there are four kinds of dhammas that insight is concerned with - materiality (rupa), consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasikas) and nibbana, so concepts are not a dhamma). That's the first important difference imo.

The second important difference is about conditionality. I.e. when said that one dhamma (like greed) conditions another dhamma (like intention), it's not meant in terms of things and existing entities affecting each other (like cause and effect in science), but pretty much the opposite - there is no existing entities - whether it's an external "thing" or a mental event, it's just dhammas arising together based on conditions (other dhammas past and present) for a split second and then falling away forever. So, it's very much irrelevant talking about existing entities, objects or things being created, etc.
MayaRefugee wrote: Anyway, this came about because chownah said "ordinary objects" can be just as insightful/beautiful as "works of art", where are we with this now?
I tend to think that as long as we're focusing on "objects" no matter how we define them, we're focusing on the wrong end - i.e. we're still in the world of concepts and speculation, instead of directing our attention to the world of dhammas and insight.
MayaRefugee wrote: Is it suffice to say temperature can create objects which seem to be at rest that can be insightful/beautiful and an artist can emulate this phenomenon?
According to my understanding of abhidhamma, temperature is just a dhamma (rupa-materiality in this case) that acts as a condition for other dhammas (other great elements - earth, water, wind as well as other derived rupas - materialities) to come together in one instant and then fall away for ever in the next instant. So, in reality there is no creation of "objects", nor can they be really said to be insightful/beautiful, at rest, or anything else. That's possible only in the world of concepts. It's due to attachment to concepts that things appear to last, be beautiful, etc.

Anyway, you seem to have a very inquisitive mind, so I'd wholeheartedly recommend Abhidhamma in daily life by Nina Van Gorkom. I remember that it gave me a lot of answers I was looking for, which I couldn't find neither in science/phylosophy nor in the suttas directly. Abhidhamma also helped to direct the inquisitiveness in a useful direction - dhammas instead of endless speculation.

If you're particularly interested in the outside world, the universe, matter, etc, even though buddhism never really set out to explain the outside world (e.g.see Simsapa sutta), there is a lot of detail in abhidhamma on rupas (I even heard this called buddhist quantum mechanics) and how they come together (5 niyamas are a related topic), but even so, it still remains in the domain of insight, not speculation - i.e. it is a sort of an account of how dhammas would be seen to "operate" with developed insight. Nina has also written a short book on rupas if you're interested. One good thing about her books is that you can ask her directly if there's something you don't understand - she participates in this yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

Annapurna wrote: We learn that there is no effect without a cause. So cause conditions an effect.

So if we think this through, then we also have to think about this universe.

What caused the universe to go "bang"?

I think here we arrive at the imponderables Buddha spoke if, or in theist religions: "God's inexplicable ways", or in the Tao Te Ching, chapter 1 : The unnameable Tao...
All this is explained in the abhidhamma as it relates to insight. The problem I think is when we start thinking in scientific/philosophical terms - e.g. "cause conditions an effect" might be, but doesn't seem to be related to dhammas being conditions for other dhammas just for a split second. I mean it seems to postulate that an existing entity causes some lasting effect on some other existing entity. Dhammas on the other hand are said to arise and fall away conditioned by other dhammas, which means it all happens in a split second and that's it, never again. No entities, no lasting effects, etc, which are only possible if we get attached to concepts. Similar applies to the universe, big bang, gib gnab, etc. Not sure how thinking about this stuff really helps in terms of reducing greed, hate and delusion in the present moment.

Best wishes
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Kim OHara
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by Kim OHara »

MayaRefugee wrote: Is it suffice to say temperature can create objects which seem to be at rest that can be insightful/beautiful and an artist can emulate this phenomenon?
Hi, MayaRefugee,
pt1 has already commented on this in one way. I was going to comment on it rather differently, like so:
"... it suffice to say temperature can create objects ..."
OUCH!! Here comes that pesky creator-idea again!!
:tongue:

I don't know if this is as useful to you as pt1's comment, but it's all I can offer.
:namaste:
Kim
MayaRefugee
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by MayaRefugee »

pt1,

Thanks for another terrific contribution.

I've made a start on reading the material you recommended, looks like buying "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" will be on the cards - the linked electronic version only goes to chapter 8.

Kim,

"I've got nasty habits"....Mick Jagger - :tantrum:

I probably won't contribute to this thread till I make sense of all this new insight (which could be a while).

Peace.
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

Kim O'Hara wrote: OUCH!! Here comes that pesky creator-idea again!!
I think it's a good comment. Short and to the point. The creator thing is a deep-rooted idea so we need all the reminders we can get to be aware of it as it creeps up again and again. That will hopefully prepare the ground to tackle the idea that's rooted even deeper - the idea of self that creates, self that meditates, self that wants to be different, etc

Best wishes
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

MayaRefugee wrote: I've made a start on reading the material you recommended, looks like buying "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" will be on the cards - the linked electronic version only goes to chapter 8.
Sorry about that, haven't noticed. Here is a full version

If you are very keen on a physical book version, you can check the yahoo group I mentioned, sometimes they might have a few books left over for free they'd be happy to share.

Best wishes
MayaRefugee
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by MayaRefugee »

Thanks pt1,

I thought I'd add this, it was in "Abhidhamma in Daily Life".
How is consciousness (i.e. mind) capable of producing a variety or diversity of effects in action? There is no art in the world more variegated than the art of painting. In painting, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest of his pictures. An artistic design occurs to the painters of masterpieces that such and such pictures should be drawn in such and such a way. Through this artistic design there arise operations of the mind (or artistic operations) accomplishing such things as sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing... Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind. And owing to its capacity thus to produce a variety or diversity of effects in action, the mind, which achieves all these arts, is in itself artistic like the arts themselves. Nay, it is even more artistic than the art itself, because the latter cannot execute every design perfectly. For that reason the Blessed One has said, ``Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?'' ``Yes, Lord.'' ``Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'' (Kindred Sayings, III, 151)
Peace.
pt1
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Re: The Buddha, Imagination and The Artistic Process

Post by pt1 »

Good quote. I really like the "Nay, it [the mind] is even more artistic than the art itself". So, seems like the best thing is to understand the mind first, and with that, one will automatically understand all the arts.

Best wishes
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