Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

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Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Virgo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:07 pm

Here is the full quote from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, from which the extracts
were taken:

From the beginning of part 6 of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the last words of the
Buddha, transl. by Sister Vajiraa and Francis Story (BPS):

"Now, the Blessed One spoke to the venerable Aananda saying: 'It may be,
Aananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the
Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Aananda, be so
considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and
the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone."

From the commentary to the last sentence above, taken from the beginning of Ch
VI, Commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, transl. by Yang-Gyu An (PTS) in
"The Buddha's Last Days":

" 'That which was taught and made known (pa~n~natta)': The Dhamma is both taught
and made known. The Vinaya is also both taught and made known. 'Made known'
means set up, established.
'That is your teacher, after I am gone': The Dhamma and the Vinaya are your
teacher after I am gone. While I remained alive, I taught you: 'This is slight
(lahuka); this is serious (garuka); this is curable (satekiccha); this is
incurable (atekiccha); this is what is to be avoided by the world (loka-vajja);
this is what is to be avoided by specific precept (pa~n~natti-vajja); this
offence (aapatti) is removable in the presence of an individual (puggala) this
offence is removable in the presence of a group (ga.na); this offence is
removable in the presence of the Order (sa"ngha).' Thus concerning the subject
matter handed down as seven groups of offences (aapatti-kkhandha), I have taught
what is called the Vinaya: the Khandhaka, the Parivaara and the two Vibha"ngas.
All of that, the basket of the Vinaya, will perform the role of Teacher for you
when I attain parinibbaana.

"And during my life, I have taught these: the four foundations of mindfulness
(satipa.t.thaana), the four right efforts (sammapphadhaana), the four roads to
supernormal power (iddhipaada), the five spiritual faculties (indriya), the five
mental powers (bala), the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjha"nga), the noble
eightfold path (magga). In various ways I have analysed these doctrinal matters
and have taught the basket of Suttanta. All of that basket of Suttanta will
peform the role of Teacher for you when I attain parinibbaana.

"And during my life, I have taught these: the five aggregates, twelve sphere
(aayatana), eighteeen elements (dhaatu), four truths (sacca), twenty-two
faculites (indriya), nine causes (hetu), four foods (aahaara), seven contacts
(phassa), seven feelings (vedanaa), seven perceptions (sa~n~naa), seven
intentions (cetanaa), seven thoughts (citta). And here too, a certain number of
things are of the sensual realm (kaamaavacara), a certain number are of the form
realm (ruupaavacara), and a ceertain number are of the formless realm
(aruupaavacara); a certain number are included (pariyaapanna), a certain number
are not included (apariyaapanna); a certain number are mundane (lokika), a
certain number are supramundane (lokuttara).

"I have analysed these things in detail and taught the Abhidhamma-pi.taka,
which is adorned by the Mahaapa.t.thaana with its countless methods and
its twenty-fourfold complete origin (samantapa.t.thaana). All of that,
the basket of the Abhidhamma, will perform the role of the Teacher for you
when I attain parinibbaana.

" Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years from my
enlightenment to my parinibbaana; three baskets, five Nikaayas, nine
branches (a"nga), eight-four thousand groups of dhamma: these are the
major divisions. Thus these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain.
I alone attain parinibbaana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I
have attained parinibbaana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma,
will advise and instruct you.

"Thus giving many reasons, the Blessed One advised: 'It is your Teacher after I
am gone....' "
*****
I'll be glad to hear any further comments.

Metta

Sarah

From: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > THERAVADA Text Studies > Origin and Authenticity of Texts > Abhidhamma - Origins (No direct Links)

Virgo
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Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:03 pm

Hi Virgo

I searched for a translation of the DN16 and found it:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html

It is the same one that you quote. There is no mention of the word Abidhamma. I searched the Ven Thenissaro's translation for the word Abidhamma and also didn't find it. Does it only appear in the comentary?

Metta
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Virgo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:24 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hi Virgo

I searched for a translation of the DN16 and found it:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html

It is the same one that you quote. There is no mention of the word Abidhamma. I searched the Ven Thenissaro's translation for the word Abidhamma and also didn't find it. Does it only appear in the comentary?

Metta

Hi Modus

They are the words of the Blessed One according to the Commentator. They are not included in the Sutta itself, I believe. The Commentary would have been handed down from the time of the Buddha (remember at the end of this sutta that the Buddha proves that every single bhikkhu in attendance at that time of His Parinibbana was an Arya, ie. an enlightened Noble Person, at least at the stage of stream-entry), and recorded later on.

Kevin
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Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:46 pm

Virgo wrote:
They are the words of the Blessed One according to the Commentator. They are not included in the Sutta itself, I believe.

Then the above is obviously not an accurate translation. As for the date of the commentaries, there is no historical evidence that they are coterminous with the suttas; they are, rather, later than suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Virgo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
They are the words of the Blessed One according to the Commentator. They are not included in the Sutta itself, I believe.

Then the above is obviously not an accurate translation. As for the date of the commentaries, there is no historical evidence that they are coterminous with the suttas; they are, rather, later than suttas.


Hi Tilt. It is an accurate translation. The post I copied and pasted above from another site (the original post of the thread) clearly says "From the commentary to the last sentence above, taken from the beginning of Ch VI, Commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, transl. by Yang-Gyu An (PTS) in
"The Buddha's Last Days":"
before the text in question. It does not claim to be a translation of the sutta, but only of the Commentary.

The title of this thread may be somewhat misleading though, as I originally thought that the word 'abhidhamma' was used in the sutta itself. I see now that it was only used in the Commentary, where the Commentary recounts the words of the Buddha during his Passing into Parinibbana.

Some of the ancient Commentaries were recited at the First Buddhist Council, so some Commentaries may be later than others, yet it's fair to assume that [at least] some of the Commentaries are all old as the Suttas they unpack.

All the best,

Virg
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:09 pm

Yes. rereading the OP msg, I see my mistake and your misleading header. Dhamma-Vinaya is a common expression throughout the suttas and Vinaya. Since this is the classical section (which I also initially missed), historical comments on any of this are quite beside the point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Virgo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Hi Tilt.

Would it be possible to change the title and add the word 'Commentary' in there, and also Maha to the title of the Sutta?

Thank you,

Virg
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:44 am

Virgo wrote:Hi Tilt.

Would it be possible to change the title and add the word 'Commentary' in there, and also Maha to the title of the Sutta?

Thank you,

Virg

me the exact title you want and I'll change it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Hi Tilt.

Would it be possible to change the title and add the word 'Commentary' in there, and also Maha to the title of the Sutta?

Thank you,

Virg

me the exact title you want and I'll change it.

Hi Tilt. How about "Mention of the Abhidhamma in the Commentary to the Mahaparinibanna Sutta". Thanks a lot.

As I mentioned, when I made the thread I thought that Abhidhamma was mentioned in the actual Sutta itself, but it is not.

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks,

Virg
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Re: Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:54 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Hi Tilt.

Would it be possible to change the title and add the word 'Commentary' in there, and also Maha to the title of the Sutta?

Thank you,

Virg

me the exact title you want and I'll change it.

Hi Tilt. How about "Mention of the Abhidhamma in the Commentary to the Mahaparinibanna Sutta". Thanks a lot.

As I mentioned, when I made the thread I thought that Abhidhamma was mentioned in the actual Sutta itself, but it is not.

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks,

Virg

Not a problewm except the tiltle tales only so many character: Mention of the Abhidhamma in the Commentary to the Mahaparin. Give it another try.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re:Mention of Abhidhamma in Comy to the Mahaparinibbana Sutt

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:Not a problewm except the tiltle tales only so many character: Mention of the Abhidhamma in the Commentary to the Mahaparin. Give it another try.


Hi Tilt. Maybe we drop the "Mention of the" and just say "Abhidhamma in the Commentary..." Thanks a lot! Sorry for the hassle and the confusion.

Indeed, confusion is the signature of sentient beings, isn't it?

Thanks,

Kev
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