Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Jechbi
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Macavity. I believe your answer to this question as it originally was phrased ...
Jechbi wrote:At what stage amid the sati of satipatthana (if any) would you say one considers or contemplates the concept of an individual citta?
... is that the question is incorrectly conceived. Any way, the answers that you provided to the questions as you phrased them are helpful.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Macavity
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Macavity »

Jechbi wrote:Thanks, Macavity. I believe your answer to this question as it originally was phrased ...
Jechbi wrote:At what stage amid the sati of satipatthana (if any) would you say one considers or contemplates the concept of an individual citta?
... is that the question is incorrectly conceived.
Hi Jechbi,

Actually I was just reading between the lines and replying according to what I guessed you really meant by your question. :smile: But since you mention it, yes, the literal phrasing of the question did strike me as problematic, for when we speak of "contemplating the concept of an individual citta" then we are really talking about understanding (pañña) at the pariyatti / sutamaya level, not the sati of satipatthana.

Kind regards,
Ciarán
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Virgo
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Virgo »

Jechbi wrote: At what stage amid the sati of satipatthana (if any) would you say one considers or contemplates the concept of an individual citta?
Sati can not penetrate the characteristic of a citta. Panna is the mental factor that can discern the anatta, anicca, or dukkha aspect of an arising dhamma as it arises. Sati sometimes arises with panna, and sometimes without. It in itself is not particularly important. Sati does play an important role though in satipatthana because it arises alongside panna whenever panna arises. This means that whenever there is panna, there will also be sati, though it is not necessarily always the case vice versa.

At any particular time panna can discern the not-self, impermanent, or unsatisfactory nature of an arising dhamma. One doesn't have to be at a special stage. It can happen right after one hears a short talk on dhamma, as happened with Bahiya in the Suttas. What is necessary is that panna is developed enough to penetrate through hearing and reflection on the dhamma. This way, in a sense, we can say that the conditions are then set such that the citta is "primed" in such a way that panna is keen enough to recognize the nature of a dhamma as it arises. This way, moments of insight or satipatthana can occur in ones life (while one is bending, stretching, adjusting, etc.). No position or anything else is necessary. All that is needed is that panna be developed enough through hearing and reflection that the conditions are set that it automatically penetrates the not-self aspect of dhammas.

Kevin
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Virgo
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Virgo »

mikenz66 wrote:For example, we talk about dependent origination: contact, feeling, craving, ... Is the sequence supposed to be subsequent citta, or long sequences of citta?

Metta
Mike
Hi Mike,

Every citta is dependently arisen.

Kevin
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mikenz66
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: Hi Mike,
Every citta is dependently arisen.
Yes, but that doesn't really address my question, which is to do with how many citta of contact, feeling, and craving there are in the sequence (one of each citta or billions of each citta or something in between).
mikenz66 wrote:Now, I can see the utility of the Abhidhamma description to understand some aspects of the mind, but I'm worried that sometimes the effect of the "quantum nature" of the citta is exaggerated. For example, we talk about dependent origination: contact, feeling, craving, ... Is the sequence supposed to be subsequent citta, or long sequences of citta?
Metta
Mike
PeterB
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by PeterB »

Is Citta linear in that way Mike ? ( not a rhetorical question btw, just one that occurs )
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mikenz66
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by mikenz66 »

PeterB wrote:Is Citta linear in that way Mike ? ( not a rhetorical question btw, just one that occurs )
I don't know. That's why I'm asking...

Presumably it's not completely linear, since it leads to very complicated mental processes.

Mike
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by PeterB »

I dont know either.. :smile: My cushion awaits.....
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by pt1 »

mikenz66 wrote:For example, we talk about dependent origination: contact, feeling, craving, ... Is the sequence supposed to be subsequent citta, or long sequences of citta?
Hi Mike, might be wrong, but I think in abhidhamma/commentary terms, contact, feeling and craving would be cetasikas arising at the same time with a citta, so it would happen every time depending on the citta kind. I.e. if it's kusala, then contact and feeling would happen at the same time as they are universal cetasikas (arise with every citta), but not craving which can arise as a cetasika only with akusala cittas.

There have been several modern teachers (like Buddhadasa) that take dependent origination (or at least it's middle part) to be a (very fast) sequential process, but I think in abhidhamma/commentary terms, if you're looking for a sequence of cittas, then you have to look into the sense-door and mind-door process sequences - i.e. 17 cittas for the sense-door process, followed by bhavanga cittas and then 10 cittas for the mind-door process, again bhavanga cittas, and then repeat that mind-door/bhanvaga cittas variation depending on how long the person thinks about what was perceived by the sense-door and first mind-door process. Anyway, I remember I realy liked the explanation of dependent origination in A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bdhi, as I think he gives the explanation both according to sutta method as well as abhidhamma method if I'm not mistaken.

Best wishes
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Virgo
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Virgo »

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, but that doesn't really address my question, which is to do with how many citta of contact, feeling, and craving there are in the sequence (one of each citta or billions of each citta or something in between).
Hi Mike,

I don't think it works in such a way that we can determine how many citta arise in such processes; it is simply not that kind of thing. Nevertheless, we can see that all consciousness is dependently arisen, it's condition being mental formations, who's condition is turn is ignorance.


With Ignorance as condition, Mental Formations arise
With Mental Formations as condition, Consciousness arises
With Consciousness as condition, Name and Form arise
With Name & Form as condition, Sense Gates arise
With Sense Gates as condition, Contact arises
With Contact as condition, Feeling arises
With Feeling as condition, Craving arises
With Craving as condition, Clinging arises
With Clinging as condition, Becoming arises
With Becoming as a condition, Birth arises
With Birth as condition, Aging and Dying arise
Repeat

The way to be free is to be free of ignorance. What must be developed to remove ignorance? The mental factor panna or wisdom must be developed. How do we develop the mental faculty of panna or wisdom? By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned. Then the cycle can be broken, resulting in freedom from stress.

kevin
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mikenz66
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kevin,

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But I was trying to elucidate some of the details pertaining to:
Virgo wrote:By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned.
along the lines of PT's post.

Metta
Mike
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Virgo
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by Virgo »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But I was trying to elucidate some of the details pertaining to:
Virgo wrote:By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned.
along the lines of PT's post.

Metta
Mike
Hi Mike, I am sorry I could not answer your question in a clearer way. Perhaps if I had more merit I would be able to help.

I think that consciousness is simply conditioned by mental formations, which form because of ignorance, so there is no point in trying to see how many citta are directly involved in this; citta simply arise because we are ignorant. Looking past that is of no use, in my opinion, because every citta and cetasika, all nama, are conditioned by ignorance. In my opionion, Mike, what is more important is understanding the workings of individual citta, cetasika, and rupa. That is where satipatthana can arise. Also, I think understanding the elements and sense bases is very important. In my opinion, the individual need not know much more than how cittas work, how and what cetasikas arise, how rupa works including the sense bases and elements, and understanding and reflecting on the fact that they all arise simply by conditions. One ought to review and discuss this dhamma. Why? Because we are people of lower intelligence. If we had high panna, we would be celibates and so on.

Kevin
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mikenz66
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: One ought to review and discuss this dhamma.
Well, yes, that's what I'm doing. Reviewing and discussing this dhamma...

Metta
Mike
PeterB
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by PeterB »

I can tell you what helps me Mike, but that might simply amount to a means which happens to suit me. That is to "drive all cittas into one ".
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mikenz66
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Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I can tell you what helps me Mike, but that might simply amount to a means which happens to suit me. That is to "drive all cittas into one ".
Sorry, this is a little cryptic for me.

Remember that this is the Abhidhamma forum. I believe it's supposed to be a place for technical discussions of Abhidhamma.

Guidelines: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
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