The value of nibbana

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Goofaholix
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by Goofaholix »

char101 wrote: That's not actually the point of my analogy :smile:
It's not a very good analogy.

Neither is this one...
char101 wrote: Between this life and nibbana, it feels like having to choose between a rotten apple or no apple to me
I would say between this life and Nibbana it feels like having to choose between a diseased apple and a healthy one.

It's not a matter of you having an apple and exterminating it, it's a matter of self view being a disease that corrupts the reality of what the apple truly is. The disease thinks it's the real apple but it's not.

This article might help give you a different way of looking at the issue of self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tself.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Guy
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by Guy »

Hello again Char,
Guy wrote:Hi Char,

Nibbana is not destruction of self because there is no self [to be found in the 5 khandhas, nor can we conceive of a self beyond the range of the 5 khandhas] to begin with. There is only the habitual tendency to grasp at a self. Usually one of the 5 khandhas (body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness) is what we take to be a self or belonging to a self [if there is a self beyond the 5 khandhas then how is it that we can identify it as a self?]. When we see that all these things are impermanent then what is there that is worth grasping at or clinging to which we can safely identify as a self?

It is this grasping at a sense of self through the lack of knowledge that there is no self [to be found in the 5 khandhas, nor can we conceive of a self beyond the range of the 5 khandhas] (and taking that which is impermanent to be permanent) which causes suffering.

With Metta,

Guy
I just thought I should make some clarifications since I realize that what I wrote was not as accurate as it could be and potentially misleading. I hope this makes things more clear.

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
rowyourboat
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by rowyourboat »

in this type of situation I think it is better to look at the positive outcome of attaining nibbana, rather than debating the metaphysics. This is simply the ending of all forms of mental suffering brought on by whatever the world throws at us. The result is clarity, mindfulness, joy and peace. Surely that is worthwhile?
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
char101
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by char101 »

Thanks for your opinions, I totally agree with them.

Probaly to restate my view: in buddhism, life is suffering and the freedom is nibbana, which is the stopping of sankhara. And since a being is essentially just sankara (mind and body), achieving nibbana also means the that there will be "nothing" left after the being (note that what I refers to a being is just a formation of body and mind and nothing else) dies.

Which renders life and existence as meaningless and the solution is essentially the annihilantion of it (note that I am not saying annihilation of self since there is no self to being with but annihilation of sankhara).

I am not arguing about nibbana as the way out of suffering, it just that the fact about life ( = suffering) and the fact about nibbana ( = end of suffering = end of sankhara = end of existence = nothing left) seems so... meaningless
char101
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by char101 »

rowyourboat wrote:in this type of situation I think it is better to look at the positive outcome of attaining nibbana, rather than debating the metaphysics. This is simply the ending of all forms of mental suffering brought on by whatever the world throws at us. The result is clarity, mindfulness, joy and peace. Surely that is worthwhile?
Hi rowyourboat,

They are very worthwhile, but they also can be experienced without reaching nibbana, e.g. by achieving jhana. Also clarity, mindfulness, joy, and peace are experiences, experiences are conditioned and not satisfying.

When nibbana is taken as the end of suffering, I see the meaning of suffering as sankhara, all which are conditioned, i.e. the mind and body, so the end of suffering can be read as the end of mind and body not just common suffering.
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acinteyyo
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by acinteyyo »

char101 wrote:
Guy wrote:Hi Char,
Hi,
Nibbana is not destruction of self because there is no self to begin with.
But nibbana is the destruction of sankara which are body and mind which are what makes a being. So it's the destruction of a being, isn't it?

I do accept that self is a wrong view but what is the point of the hard practice to achieve nibbana if the end is the annihilation of the being (i.e. the mind and body and the cycle of samsara). People want to achieve nibbana because there is a lot of suffering risk in this cycle of existence. Beings do not life suffering. That is just their (our) nature. But although nibbana is the end of suffering, it is more than that, it also means the end of all (of a being, i.e. their mind and body). It just does not seem to be the solution of suffering to me. Probably if we can say that nibbana is a way of transformation from current dependently arising form (the mind and body in samsara) to some kind of existence which existence does not dependend on other thing and that does not ill, age, or die, and know that at least the previous state of samsara has been eliminated, nibbana can be seen a better way of this suffering in samsara.
There is only the habitual tendency to grasp at a self, usually one of the 5 khandas (body, feeling, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness) is what we take to be a self or belonging to a self. When we see that all these things are impermanent then what is there that is worth grasping at or clinging to which we can safely identify as a self?
So the [englightment] flow goes from [an impermanent-suffering-not I formation (5 khandhas)] -> [complete destruction of the 5 khandhas and the stopping of the cycle] which seems to me that anything is this world is so pointless?

It's like I'm having this conversation with myself
A: what's the point of life?
B: there is no point of life, it's just an impermanent, suffering state with nothing to be called I or mine or myself
A: then is there a better state?
B: yes there is this complete destruction of ourselves both of our wrong view of self and the mind and the body and the cycle of existence
A: how is that any better that the previous?
B: ... ?
I don't want to be offensive. It is absolutely not my intention to be offensive, but this kind of "rough" tone is the only way how I think I might help you with this. Your assumptions are simply absolutely wrong. Because they are all together based on attavada (belief in a self). Can't you see that you're all the time identifying yourself with things (dhamma) which shall not considerd as self? You don't really use the word "self" but it is obvious that you mean it. You say:
char101 wrote:But nibbana is the destruction of sankara which are body and mind which are what makes a being. So it's the destruction of a being, isn't it?
And it is noticeable that you think you are this being, made out of sankhata dhammá, body and mind is what you think you are. And that's why you think when body and mind will be destroyed, you too will be destroyed. And that then there will be nothing left. It is a prime example for the view of annhilition. "Being" is just another word for the five aggregates of grasping.
If you aren't, according to the Buddha, the five aggregates, and when the aggregates would finally cease, then what is it that will be "destroyed"? You or yourself will not be "destroyed" because you are not the five aggregates, you are not body and mind, you are not sankhata dhammá, you are not any thing (dhammá) at all. Actually to talk about what you are is irrelevant, because it already presumes a self, which actually is not to be found. So why even talk about something which nobody have ever found anywhere?! Please keep in mind, that there is not even the slightest bit of anger in this post, just to not get me wrong. ;) If I misunderstood you, I apologise.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Wind
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by Wind »

For those who continue to cling onto this make-belief "self", suffering ensures. Nibbana is the end of this illusion and ignorance. No matter how hard you try to hold on to this "self", the nature of impermanence will take it away. And the process will continue and has continue timelessly in this cycle of rebirth and death. Being attach to this "self" is like wandering in a cell endlessly. There will come a point when one wants to escape and be free. The only way out is Nibbana. As to what Nibbana is, only the noble ones who has attain it knows for sure. And so far, they all agree it is the greatest bliss, most worthy pursuit.
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by rowyourboat »

char101 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:in this type of situation I think it is better to look at the positive outcome of attaining nibbana, rather than debating the metaphysics. This is simply the ending of all forms of mental suffering brought on by whatever the world throws at us. The result is clarity, mindfulness, joy and peace. Surely that is worthwhile?
Hi rowyourboat,

They are very worthwhile, but they also can be experienced without reaching nibbana, e.g. by achieving jhana. Also clarity, mindfulness, joy, and peace are experiences, experiences are conditioned and not satisfying.

When nibbana is taken as the end of suffering, I see the meaning of suffering as sankhara, all which are conditioned, i.e. the mind and body, so the end of suffering can be read as the end of mind and body not just common suffering.
Hi Char101

The states that I mentioned can be reached while absorbed in jhana- when you come back you are back to square one. In nibbana there is no suffering, no clinging to pleasant/neutral mind states floating about wanting it to be any other way. So there is a positive feedback loop of contentment leading to more positive mindstates. These states are conditioned- this has been seen- hence the clinging to them has been abandoned using this tool of insight- now at the end even the tool is let go of. No more suffering. There is no displeasure at there being conditioned mindstates, no particular pleasure either. there is no more seeking for satisfaction- that in itself is satisfying. there is no more seeking of happiness, that in itself brings happiness. there is more seeking for meaning, in a meaningless world- that brings contentment.

The end of the mind-body is suffering if it's continued existence was seen as desirable/pleasant/worthwhile. Then we cling to it and want this pleasure from it. This is the cause which leads to suffering as well. So giving up this little pleasure for a great pleasure is what it is all about.

with metta
With Metta

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& Upekkha
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BlackBird
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by BlackBird »

char101 wrote:I see the meaning of suffering as...
If you would like to take this practice of Dhamma further than speculation and reasoning, you might have to let go of this notion.

metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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meindzai
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by meindzai »

Nibanna has absolutely no value whatsoever. :)
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ground
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by ground »

Since the "value" of something is not inhering in this "something" it is always dependent on the "value" assigned by a subject. Therefore one who strives for nirvana and has not attained it yet may assign great value to it. One who has never heard about nirvana cannot and one who has heard but does not bother may not assign any value to it.
So the "value" is based on "imagination": it is based on imagining what the difference would be or would "feel" like having "something" that one has not. That this "something" may be just an idea, i.e. is an imagination itself, does not matter in the context of the subject's assigning value to it.
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by Fede »

char101 wrote:(. . . )
I am not arguing about nibbana as the way out of suffering, it just that the fact about life ( = suffering) and the fact about nibbana ( = end of suffering = end of sankhara = end of existence = nothing left) seems so... meaningless
Maybe when you get there, you'll change your mind...
Actually, I'm serious....
Whilst we try to fathom the unfathomable, we simply tie ourselves in great knots.
I have trouble enough watching my step getting through the day, let alone attaining Nibbana.
My thoughts scatter like frightened rabbits, my mouth runs away with me, and my actions are all too often clumsy and less than skilful.
I seriously and sincerely take refuge each morning and evening, and seriously and sincerely recite the Five precepts, considering each one in turn as I do so.
I sit quietly for a while and still the whole that I am, in readiness for the day, then begin my day and promptly cock it up with flair and consummate ease....

To me, the value of Nibbana is being able to start as I mean to go on, an go on as I've started.
Listen, my words here are probably not of any great use, but I sometimes think that when we pose such questions to ourselves, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's like somebody fretting and panicking about which face of Mt. Everest it would be better to tackle, when all we've ever done is a bit of gentle hill walking with the dog at weekends.....

Thanks for reading this far! :twothumbsup:

:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by imagemarie »

I sit quietly for a while and still the whole that I am
Hey, I'm with you sister.. :smile:

Thank-you.
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by nschauer »

Check out the lecture by Ajhan Amaro on nibbana on http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-all.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 10/31/09. Nibbana is the island beyond - and to me this means beyond the craving for nibbana - and this may be the source of your confusion. Elimination of the craving for nibbana will lead to nibbana - not the destruction of the self. Without craving - what is the self? To see what is seen, to hear what is heard, to feel what is felt, to know what is known and this is all there is.
Otherwise, meditation becomes like a prayer for salvation - it is no longer meditation because once again - see what is seen, hear what is heard, feel what is felt, know what is known. Buddhism is not holding out nibbana as a kind of reward for good meditation - or loss of self. It is not heaven. So the trap is expecting something - it is as it is - and that is what you are experiencing. Speculation on achieving nibbana - well these are just thoughts - thus not real. Abandoning all expectation - craving is the achievement of nibbana - and if I long for nibbana- how could I get there? If I think that I must pay a price to enter nibbana - then this delusion is stopping me from abandoning all craving - stopping me from reaching the island beyond.

This is my understanding.
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ground
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Re: The value of nibbana

Post by ground »

nschauer wrote:Abandoning all expectation - craving is the achievement of nibbana - and if I long for nibbana- how could I get there? If I think that I must pay a price to enter nibbana - then this delusion is stopping me from abandoning all craving - stopping me from reaching the island beyond.

This is my understanding.
Each activity originating from within the sphere described by the 12 links of DO necessarily ends where it starts, i.e. does not "reach" beyond this sphere. Therefore each activity of one having been born necessarily results in further birth.

This is my understanding of the 12 links of DO.
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