Girl Scouts

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by DNS »

Thaibebop wrote: My daughter is happy doing it, that is what counts.
:thumbsup: :clap:
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Thaibebop
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Thaibebop »

Okay, girl scouts has ended up an epic failure. Mu daughter has done nothing but little art projects she could do at home and sell cookies for them. The push to sell cookies had more time and meetings devoted then any other event.

Now my daughter has come home from a meeting with a nice picture she drew. Her den mother asked her to draw a picture on how she could best serve God. WHAT?!!! Tonights whole meeting was on how to serve god and be a better person. I am furious. I trusted what I was told at the begining of this and now feel very betrayed. I do not recommend girl scouts, at all. I am finding somethin else for my daughter to do, something she could learn something from. Like play an instrument, or learn a sport.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, Thaibebop,
Nice to see you here. :smile:
Slow down, please, for your own sake and hers.
:meditate:
'Furious' is not a good basis for any decision.

Look for the positives:
Girl Scouts can't have been too horrible or it wouldn't have lasted six months.
Remember why you decided to take her along: she wanted to try it.
The low value that you put on the activities might not match the real benefit to her - she has tried it and, no doubt, learned things about other people that she wouldn't have learned otherwise.

Look for the Middle Way:
Did your daughter enjoy it? Does she want to continue?
If yes to both, perhaps a word to the den mother about inclusiveness might be all that's needed, and the next picture might be 'How to make the world a better place.' If not, is there another Scout group near enough to get to? If not, then go ahead and look at other kinds of activities.
:namaste:
Kim
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catmoon
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by catmoon »

Sigh. Has the world forgotten that scouting originated as a pre-military training program? That the founder was a lieutenant-general in the British army? If you want to ingrain military values in your kids it's a good way to start.
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baratgab
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by baratgab »

Thaibebop wrote:Now my daughter has come home from a meeting with a nice picture she drew. Her den mother asked her to draw a picture on how she could best serve God. WHAT?!!! Tonights whole meeting was on how to serve god and be a better person. I am furious. I trusted what I was told at the begining of this and now feel very betrayed. I do not recommend girl scouts, at all. I am finding somethin else for my daughter to do, something she could learn something from. Like play an instrument, or learn a sport.
I'm not sure about the mental maturity of this age group, but I would certainly try to explain her very clearly that environments like this can be dangerous, because they can indoctrinate us without wanting or even noticing it; and that how disrespectful is this. If she could understand some bigger, psychological perspective in which she could place these Christian beliefs, I think there is much less danger that they take possession of her mind. If this is a danger at all...

Otherwise, a simple prohibition can backfire. I have heard a story of a farmer who convinced his cows to eat rotten food - just by putting it outside the fence. :smile:
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Thaibebop
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Thaibebop »

catmoon wrote:Sigh. Has the world forgotten that scouting originated as a pre-military training program? That the founder was a lieutenant-general in the British army? If you want to ingrain military values in your kids it's a good way to start.
Believe me, I know this. My daughter just came home from school saying she wanted to join, because they told her about at school and she had this friend who was already in it. I said no, but my wife, who didn't like the idea either still said give it a try. So, I am not surprised but still very disappointed.
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Thaibebop
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Thaibebop »

Kim O'Hara wrote:Hi, Thaibebop,
Nice to see you here. :smile:
Slow down, please, for your own sake and hers.
:meditate:
'Furious' is not a good basis for any decision.

Look for the positives:
Girl Scouts can't have been too horrible or it wouldn't have lasted six months.
Remember why you decided to take her along: she wanted to try it.
The low value that you put on the activities might not match the real benefit to her - she has tried it and, no doubt, learned things about other people that she wouldn't have learned otherwise.

Look for the Middle Way:
Did your daughter enjoy it? Does she want to continue?
If yes to both, perhaps a word to the den mother about inclusiveness might be all that's needed, and the next picture might be 'How to make the world a better place.' If not, is there another Scout group near enough to get to? If not, then go ahead and look at other kinds of activities.
:namaste:
Kim
Thank you for your calm words. Yes, I have looked carefully at this and these activities are the same things she did in pre-school and daycare, like finger painting stuff. There is nothing challenging and she has even admitted that some of these meetings were boring. The biggest thing she has done is sell cookies. If that's all the scouts want her for then at least pay her.
I have thought of talking to the den mother but I think it would just cause problems. See, the Girl Scout website even has this god stuff posted on it. The organization says that the children don't have to say or do this religious aspects but they won't stop the den mother from doing it. Plus, I am in Kansas, should I say more. My daughter is coming home with homework that ties in to Christianity. The other day she had an english excerise that was all about a man and a woman trying to get to church to get married. This is 1st grade and this homework was only four paragraphs she had to practice and it included church four to five times. I Am BESIEGED!!! The troop is run through the school so that is the only troop she can be in, so on to other things.

I am trying to find the money for her to take violin lessons or find a sport to play that isn't too expensive or through the YMCA. They are every where here and trying to get to my children, so until we move somewhere else I think individual activities are the best.
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Thaibebop
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Thaibebop »

baratgab wrote:
Thaibebop wrote:Now my daughter has come home from a meeting with a nice picture she drew. Her den mother asked her to draw a picture on how she could best serve God. WHAT?!!! Tonights whole meeting was on how to serve god and be a better person. I am furious. I trusted what I was told at the begining of this and now feel very betrayed. I do not recommend girl scouts, at all. I am finding somethin else for my daughter to do, something she could learn something from. Like play an instrument, or learn a sport.
I'm not sure about the mental maturity of this age group, but I would certainly try to explain her very clearly that environments like this can be dangerous, because they can indoctrinate us without wanting or even noticing it; and that how disrespectful is this. If she could understand some bigger, psychological perspective in which she could place these Christian beliefs, I think there is much less danger that they take possession of her mind. If this is a danger at all...

Otherwise, a simple prohibition can backfire. I have heard a story of a farmer who convinced his cows to eat rotten food - just by putting it outside the fence. :smile:
Well, my oldest daughter is now seven and asking questions, so I think she can understand alot. I have already started having conversations about this and why it is wrong and why her parents don't believe in it. She has also started asking questions about Christianity before we even brought it up. It disturbed us greatly. So, we know someone has been talking to her about it, we think it might just be her friends, they all go to church on Sunday and talk about. So, we think they have asked her questions or made statements that has her asking questions of us. Right now she doesn't want to tell us who has been talking about it, which makes us think that maybe there is an adult which is somewhere in this. We hope that isn't the case. Believe me, here in Kansas any effort we put up that others would view as an attack or disagreement with Christianity would not go over well. We would have no allies in small matters, like the homework she is being given, Something big and nasty would have to happen before we got support. So, we have pick our battles carefully and just talk to her about what is really going on here. I still feel like we are surrounded though, I don't like this feeling.
Reductor
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Reductor »

I still feel like we are surrounded though, I don't like this feeling.
When you can move, do move. That is what I would do in your situation.
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Thaibebop
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Thaibebop »

thereductor wrote:
I still feel like we are surrounded though, I don't like this feeling.
When you can move, do move. That is what I would do in your situation.
We hope that will be soon. I am finishing my undergrad in December, than I appling to Universities that deal with South East Asian History. So, I really hope by Fall of 2011 we will be gone. However, these universities are in places like Michgan and Wisconsin, and up state New York. I am a little concerned with how these places compare to where we are now. After those places though Thailand will be the goal. My wife has been too long away from her family and I want to get at real research.
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baratgab
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by baratgab »

Thaibebop wrote:... She has also started asking questions about Christianity before we even brought it up. It disturbed us greatly. So, we know someone has been talking to her about it, we think it might just be her friends, they all go to church on Sunday and talk about. So, we think they have asked her questions or made statements that has her asking questions of us. Right now she doesn't want to tell us who has been talking about it, which makes us think that maybe there is an adult which is somewhere in this. We hope that isn't the case. Believe me, here in Kansas any effort we put up that others would view as an attack or disagreement with Christianity would not go over well. ...
There are a lot of good atheist/scientific sources nowadays. The most prominent atheists, like Dawkins (though, granted, he is from the arrogant ones), basically don't say anything negative about Buddhism, as far as I know. What they try to expose is the theist belief and the surrounding dogmatic attitude, because they see it as a cause of ignorance and social injustice. What is more, intelligent atheists are usually quite keen on the idea of non-violence towards other sentient beings. So I think all in all it could be a good course of action to introduce some peaceful, purely rational atheist materials, if you consider your daughter mature enough.

If you are interested, you can find a lot of full-length lectures from the Dawkins Foundation at their YouTube-page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/richarddawkinsdotnet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As an interesting side-note, recently I found a discussion between Richard Dawkins and Peter Singer (prominent philosopher) on the moral status of non-human animals; I think this is a fine example of the good prospects of the current scientific approach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By the way, are familiar with Pat Condell's videos on YouTube? :smile: Well, it's not exactly the best example of right speech, from Buddhist perspective, but you may find his videos interesting (he is a vegetarian, and did not mention Buddhism negatively):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjO4duhMRZk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the best :smile:
Last edited by baratgab on Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
PeterB
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by PeterB »

Those who aquaint themselves with Dr Dawkin's stance on the status of non human beings should also aquaint themselves with his prominent and vigorous role in promoting a new facility for vivisection experiments on Primates , a campaign which was successful and which led to the facility opening last year, and is even as we speak, conducting a range of experiments on a number of Primate species. These include Anthropoid Apes.
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baratgab
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by baratgab »

PeterB wrote:Those who aquaint themselves with Dr Dawkin's stance on the status of non human beings should also aquaint themselves with his prominent and vigorous role in promoting a new facility for vivisection experiments on Primates , a campaign which was successful and which led to the facility opening last year, and is even as we speak, conducting a range of experiments on a number of Primate species. These include Anthropoid Apes.
That sounds rather strangle, especially that abolishing vivisection is a topic on which, I think, much more people agree than on vegetarianism. :? Do you know some sources that I could review to get some more information? I did a quick search on Google with the keywords "Dawkins vivisection" and "Dawkins animal experiments", but I did not see any directly relevant pages so far.
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Dan74
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Thabebop, :hello:

It's an interesting dilemma and many thoughtful suggestions.

I have a six-year-old and they can sure be very impressionable and quickly pick up things from their peers, including beliefs. On the other hand I don't want to set my children against others who may have different beliefs to us. So while I share stories from the suttas and the Buddha's teachings with him, he knows that most other people (including grandparents) follow different teachings and believe in god and that's OK. I teach him that all religions encourage us to be kind to one another and do good while avoiding doing bad stuff. And that's a good thing so we respect all religions.

That way he doesn't set himself in opposition to others, think he is right and they are wrong, etc. At school they have RE (religious education) which tends to be about god at least so far. I try to ask him critical questions and promote an agnostic attitude but on the other hand, serving god can be translated as doing good, since god is meant to be a force of good after all.

So I'd encourage Buddhist parents who are embedded in Christian cultures to do this "translation work" - after all, it's not like the kids are told to do anything bad, it's just the Christian lingo that's used. Besides I think it's a good idea to be respectful of the dominant religion no matter where we are. This promotes a healthy open attitude rather than hostility.

In any case, Good Luck, thaibebop!!!
_/|\_
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RayfieldNeel
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Re: Girl Scouts

Post by RayfieldNeel »

The Scouting experience will vary widely, depending on the leader and the group..my own time in the Boy Scouts (30 years ago) involved nothing that was overtly or forcibly religious, and certainly nothing that was paramilitary. Churches tend to be the hosts for Scout troops in my area, and I suppose some churches may be more involved than others.

Parenting and religious beliefs...whew, this can be a topic with a lot of contention. For me, growing up in the Methodist Church, the key factor was my parents. They were Christians, and we attended, but my parents were somewhat open-minded, and never tried to use fear to force a belief down my throat. This, to me, was a much bigger factor than the fact that I was in Boy Scouts, was baptized, went through Methodist Confirmation, etc. All of that happened to me, yet here I sit, years later, more Buddhist than anything else.

Long story short...I'm not sure I'd worry so much about a tiny bit of God indoctrination. If the parenting is done correctly, without fear and hate, and with good example, the kid will find the path that suits them...and that's the goal, right? Not to make little clones of ourselves. Where ever you move, there will be someone around that wants to convince them that their belief system is the best one. Just make sure that the kid has the intellectual tools and open mind to figure things out. :smile:

This is how I'm raising my 2 daughters. My eldest is now to the point where I think she'd detect when we're trying to hold her back from something...and that might intrigue her with it all the more. She's a bright kid..certainly smarter than her old man. :tongue:
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