Spirit worship

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davcuts
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Spirit worship

Post by davcuts »

I just posted on another forum about spirits. It seems some Buddhist take part in spirit worship. Is there spirit worship in Theravada Buddhism? Do Theravadas even believe in spirits, or possession?


Thanks,
David
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retrofuturist
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,

There is no spirit worship in Theravada, though there is some spirit worship in some Theravada countries... but beware the distinction.

All beings in Theravada are accounted for within the...

Thirty-One Planes Of Existence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note, there is no Buddha realm.

As for believing in spirits, I think it's more a cultural thing than a Theravadin thing.

As for possession, I think I recall somewhere that possession is one possible explanation for madness, but take that with a grain of salt until someone learned like venerable Dhammanando is able to confirm or deny that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

I think that this depends on how you define "worship". There are certainly instructions to recollect, and be nice to, devas.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's talks on the Ratana Sutta are worth listening to if you want some perspective on devas:
http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/Sn/Sn_course.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sn 2.1 Ratana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Whatever spirits have gathered here,
— on the earth, in the sky —
may you all be happy
& listen intently to what I say.

Thus, spirits, you should all be attentive.
Show kindness to the human race.
Day & night they give offerings,
so, being heedful, protect them.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... call-devas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as when gold is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is gold cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of a furnace, salt earth, red chalk, a blow-pipe, tongs, & the appropriate human effort. This is how gold is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas... As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of the noble ones undertaking the Deva-Uposatha. He lives with the devas. It is owing to the devas that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique.


Metta
Mike
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bodom
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by bodom »

Buddhism and Spirit Worship in Burma and Thailand

http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=3782" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by Ceisiwr »

It depends very much on different factors, the individual beliefs, society and culture etc

You will find that many theravadins do worship spirits in thailand and sri-lanka but i think it is far less common among western buddhists (this again depends on the individual etc)

Also i think it is more common among lay people than the bhikkhus and bhikkunis (although i may be wrong)



:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote: Also i think it is more common among lay people than the bhikkhus and bhikkunis (although i may be wrong)
Again, I think it depends what you mean by "worship". Many Bhikkhus and Bhikhhunis end their Dhamma talks by sharing merit with Devas, etc.

Metta
Mike
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bodom
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by bodom »

mikenz66 wrote:
clw_uk wrote: Also i think it is more common among lay people than the bhikkhus and bhikkunis (although i may be wrong)
Again, I think it depends what you mean by "worship". Many Bhikkhus and Bhikhhunis end their Dhamma talks by sharing merit with Devas, etc.

Metta
Mike
Bhante Gunaratana from the Bhavana society recites a chant to invite devas to come and listen to the Dhamma talk he is about to give.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sharing dhamma talk and merit though is different from worship :bow:

Metta
Craig
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

I understand that "sharing merit" is still making an offering to the devas in the sense that the intention is that they will delight in it the good merit of the talk and thus benefit.

"Offerings to Honour the Dead" by Bhante Aggacitta might be of interest:
http://sasanarakkha.org/articles/2003/0 ... -dead.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It discusses offerings to dead relatives and devas on the basis of the Suttas.

See also: AN 10.177
Janussonin Sutta (On Offerings to the Dead)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Then there is the case where a certain person takes life, takes what is not given, engages in sensual misconduct, engages in false speech, engages in divisive speech, engages in abusive speech, engages in idle chatter, is covetous, bears ill will, and has wrong views. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the realms of the hungry shades. He lives there, he remains there, by means of whatever is the food of hungry shades. He lives there, he remains that, by means of whatever his friends or relatives give in dedication to him. This is the possible place for that gift to accrue to one staying there.
Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by Ceisiwr »

To me offering merit etc is karuna not worship. My deffinition of worship is doing deeds and making offerings to a being in order to gain that beings favour so that you can secure good fortune and/or to avoid offending said being out of fear of some kind of punishment in this exsistence or another one.

Sharing merit and dhamma talks with other beings is done to benefit those beings and not to gain favour.

At least thats my take on it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

It seems that "worship" is a problematical word. Rather than argue about what exactly the word means, I'll stick to the concept of making offerings to devas and deceased relatives.

Clearly Buddhists do make offerings hoping for some good effects. Though of course I am trying to cultivate my "innate generosity" I don't give money, food, or assistance to Bhikkhus thinking that it will have no effect.

The Buddha appears to be indicating in the Suttas I've quoted above that offerings to deceased relatives will have good effects for the offerers' deceased relatives who are unfortunate enough to be in the hungry ghost realm. Offerings to devas may also have good effects for the offerers themselves.

However, the Suttas clearly indicate that one shouldn't take refuge in the devas.

As I said, Bhikkhu Bodhi's musings about devas are worth listening to in part because they give some useful insight into Buddhism as it is practised in Buddhist countries.
http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/Sn/Sn_course.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first three suttas studied, the Ratana, Mahāmaṅgala, and Mettā Suttas, are among the most popular texts in Theravada Buddhism. They provide the backbone of understanding, practice, and attitude in the Theravada Buddhist world and are often taught to lay people so that they will grow up imbibing the values and ideals of Buddhism. They also serve as paritta suttas (“Protective Discourses”), recited to provide blessings and protection in times of difficulty and danger.
Metta
Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by kc2dpt »

mikenz66 wrote:However, the Suttas clearly indicate that one should take refuge in the devas.
You mean "shouldn't" right?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

Peter wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:However, the Suttas clearly indicate that one should take refuge in the devas.
You mean "shouldn't" right?
Hmm, obviously I should not be let loose on a keyboard... :computerproblem:

Fixed...

Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sorry if my last posts seemed to be nit-picking that wasnt my intention.

I do believe that giving offerings to the deceased that you feel are in the lower realms is beneficial, even if it has no effect at all on said being it will still be good for the person who is offering as it is done out of the wholesome roots.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Spirit worship

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi clw_uk,

No, I don't think it's nit-picking. It's an interesting discussion. I don't personally leave out food for my deceased relatives, but I did want to point out that there are practises in Buddhist countries that some Western Buddhists dismiss as "superstition" but actually seem to be in line with the Suttas.

Being aware of this has made me more open to practises of indigenous people in many countries (including my own). Not that I necessarily believe them, but I now look much more closely at the motivation and the meaning...

Metta
Mike
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