recursive way

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

recursive way

Postby effort » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:24 am

during observing mind, i think one of the most obstacles for me is the mind start to work in recursive way, i cant put that into the words now( i'm not sure i can do ), but do you have any experiment or know any article about that?

nice idea to open a post about obstacles during mind observation.
User avatar
effort
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:32 am

Re: recursive way

Postby Freawaru » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:41 am

effort wrote:during observing mind, i think one of the most obstacles for me is the mind start to work in recursive way, i cant put that into the words now( i'm not sure i can do ), but do you have any experiment or know any article about that?

nice idea to open a post about obstacles during mind observation.


Hi Effort,

that is normal. You know, the mind is a member of the Department of Redundancy Department - and it likes to repeat itself. ;)

Seriously, the pathways in the brain need to be used again and again to work efficiently (with control and speed), has to do with the biochemistry of neurons. A thought is not just one thought but the impulse is repeated and repeated at a hight speed as well as at a low speed if one leaves the mind to itself and it has nothing else to do.
Freawaru
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: recursive way

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:51 am

Freawaru wrote:
effort wrote:during observing mind, i think one of the most obstacles for me is the mind start to work in recursive way, i cant put that into the words now( i'm not sure i can do ), but do you have any experiment or know any article about that?

nice idea to open a post about obstacles during mind observation.


Hi Effort,

that is normal. You know, the mind is a member of the Department of Redundancy Department - and it likes to repeat itself. ;)

Seriously, the pathways in the brain need to be used again and again to work efficiently (with control and speed), has to do with the biochemistry of neurons. A thought is not just one thought but the impulse is repeated and repeated at a hight speed as well as at a low speed if one leaves the mind to itself and it has nothing else to do.

Well put. I think the thing is not to attempt to not think, and not to embue the vast majority of thoughts with significance.
There are exceptions...." I can smell burning " might be a thought which has actual significance.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: recursive way

Postby effort » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:06 am

mind goes like this:

noting thinking then it starts:... what is this thinking(noting : thinking)... i want to see the real side of this(noting : thinking)... where it comes from(noting : thinking)...go deeper and find it(noting : thinking)...i dont like it... want to feel different(noting : thinking)

each thought cause something related to the thought arise,if related though has a base about the what the thought feels like, or wanting to see that truly or find something dipper in it you wont be able to let it go and observe the mind, you start to think recursive.

can i convey the feeling?
User avatar
effort
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:32 am

Re: recursive way

Postby Reductor » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:10 pm

effort wrote:mind goes like this:

noting thinking then it starts:... what is this thinking(noting : thinking)... i want to see the real side of this(noting : thinking)... where it comes from(noting : thinking)...go deeper and find it(noting : thinking)...i dont like it... want to feel different(noting : thinking)

each thought cause something related to the thought arise,if related though has a base about the what the thought feels like, or wanting to see that truly or find something dipper in it you wont be able to let it go and observe the mind, you start to think recursive.

can i convey the feeling?


I don't think you need to convey it, as it is common. All too common.

Are you just noting the thinking and failing to return to the breath (or whatever object you have taken)?

When you start the practice of meditation you will find the mind wanders off for long periods, then you notice "Oopss.." So long as you notice it and return to the breath then it is alright ... eventually you will catch thoughts right at the start and cut them off with ease. In time you will find the mind has a much more still nature and is easily kept on the object. At the start it can be a real effort to pull your mind away from that line of thoughts and return it to the breath -- it can be hard, but it must be done. In time it will become second nature.

Since your mind seems to be restless i might suggest a simple emphasis in you mediation (if it is the breath you have). Feel the breath as you exhale, but pay attention to the sensation that happens when you've exhaled but have not yet begun to inhale. Just watch for that one point over and over during your session.
You can do that as long as you feel your mind is still racing. When you think that the mind might be calm enough to watch the breath in a broader way then you can try that and if it works out that way.

I have found it helpful on more than one occasion.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

User avatar
Reductor
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: recursive way

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:45 pm

Feel the breath as you exhale, but pay attention to the sensation that happens when you've exhaled but have not yet begun to inhale. Just watch for that one point over and over during your session.


Very yes, I second this. I had to figure out this same trick for myself, the mind can drift so much even in that half-second.

Effort, I don't know what sort of practice you are doing specifically, but you seem to be using the noting method. If you are verbally labeling things as they arise (as in with thoughts in a verbal form, of course you aren't actually speaking) I would say you could maybe try to still note, but try and do it without the verbal label. I've found that words just seem to turn into more and more words, so it's best to try and cut them out. Note with bare awareness and no verbal label, but perhaps that is something that comes with time anyway.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN


Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests