multiple simultaneous samadhis

[meindzai]

Based on my undestanding of citta, the mind in general doesn't ever do more than one thing at a time, though it can and does create the illusion of doing so by rapidly switching amongst various objects, much the same way computers multitask. i.e. we don't even hear and see at the same time, but the rapid alteration of mind-moments make it seem this way.

So if there is such a thing with samadhi or jhana, it would have to occur in the same way. Though I don't think it sounds very useful.

Though back on usenet once somebody gave a cool concentration exercise once, involving mentally counting forward from 1 to 10 while also counting backwards from 10 to 1. Pretty much makes smoke come out of my ears!

-M

[Freawaru]

Hi pt1,

I think it's more to do with nobody here actually having the experience to say one way or the other.

Yeah, I am the freak

I don't really know either. When I read those chapters in English, i don't get the impression that they are talking about two kasinas at the same time, nor two jhanas at the same time...

You are right. The chapter does not teach two kasinas or two jhanas at the same time (but I am positive it is possible, too). What the chapter teaches is one kasina and one jhana at the same time. Don't you think that normally the sphere of nothingness and "earth, earth" exclude each other? What about the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception and "fire, fire"? How can one be perceptive of a kasina or nimitta and experience the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception? To me this makes no sense.

Especially considering abhidhamma on which the book was built. Afaik, citta can have only one object at a time.

Remember that the iddhis taught here are mundane iddhis. They don't go to the Abhidhamma level that is based on high temporal resolution discernment.

Anyway, why not try and find teachers who have direct experience with this? They would probably be much more competent to give advice on all this stuff.

Finding a good teacher for oneself is not easy. I have had some bad experiences in this regard and I have read of others. It seems not even all so-called teachers and monks and nuns have read the Visuddhimagga as one can get responses like "you can't have this experience after doing the technique for half a day as *me* it took months". The Visuddhimagga states unmistakenly and repeatedly that practice in past lives speeds up any attainment one can reach this one - but who really believes it? So to be honest: I am afraid - I am afraid of not being believed, of being insulted by so-called "authorities" who assume I fake it because they are jealous. I am afraid of wasting time and money for a search of a teacher who maybe does not exist or is otherwise unreachable to me. Call me frustrated

[pt1]

Yeah, I am the freak

Well, I'd say you basically need a peer-group I mean there certainly are people around who are interested and have experience with iddhis but usually nobody talks about it openly precisely because it's hard to understand for those who don't have any experience with it (i.e. the majority). So the best advice I can give is to seek out like-minded people rather than discussing it with those of us who really have no idea what we're talking about.

You are right. The chapter does not teach two kasinas or two jhanas at the same time (but I am positive it is possible, too). What the chapter teaches is one kasina and one jhana at the same time.

Yes, I think so, because afaik the first four jhanas (of the form realm) are dependent on the kasina being the object of citta, i.e. there's no jhana without the object - kasina in the case. So, you can (in theory, I've never actually experienced it) rapidly switch between different kasinas while maintaining the same jhana, or you can switch between jhanas with changed kasina, or you can switch between jhanas while maintaining the same kasina. I don't think there are any other theoretical options.

Don't you think that normally the sphere of nothingness and "earth, earth" exclude each other? What about the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception and "fire, fire"? How can one be perceptive of a kasina or nimitta and experience the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception? To me this makes no sense.

As far as I remember reading about it, when it come to formless jhanas (according to Visuddhimagga and commentarial tradition) they happen when the kasina as the object of the fourth jhana (of the form realm) is - removed! So, once you remove the kasina object in the fourth jhana - like earth kasina, you're then left with space - that's the first formless jhana (i.e. of the formless realm). Then when space is removed, only consciousness is left (second formless jhana). Then when consciousness is removed, nothingness is left (third formless jhana). And when nothingness is abandoned, there's neither perception nor non-perception (fourth formless jhana). Either way, if you're interested in iddhis, I don't see the point of playing with formless jhanas, because iddhis happen through the mastery of the fourth (form realm) jhana (I think).

Remember that the iddhis taught here are mundane iddhis. They don't go to the Abhidhamma level that is based on high temporal resolution discernment.

Regardless of whether iddhis (the first 5 abhinnas) are mundane or supramundane (the sixth abhinna), I'm pretty sure that Visuddhimagga was written with abhidhamma as the underlying method. So if you want to understand Visuddhimagga properly, then you'd make your life a lot easier if you take abhidhamma into account as well. I mean, the same person who wrote Visuddhimagga also edited the commentaries to the 7 abhidhamma books and Visudhimagga is constantly referenced in them.

Finding a good teacher for oneself is not easy. I have had some bad experiences in this regard and I have read of others. It seems not even all so-called teachers and monks and nuns have read the Visuddhimagga as one can get responses like "you can't have this experience after doing the technique for half a day as *me* it took months". The Visuddhimagga states unmistakenly and repeatedly that practice in past lives speeds up any attainment one can reach this one - but who really believes it? So to be honest: I am afraid - I am afraid of not being believed, of being insulted by so-called "authorities" who assume I fake it because they are jealous. I am afraid of wasting time and money for a search of a teacher who maybe does not exist or is otherwise unreachable to me. Call me frustrated

Well, not sure how much getting frustrated helps but I think it's normal to go through several teachers before you find the one that suits you. I think I already mentioned Pa-Auk Sayadaw before. From what I gather online he's one of the few respected teachers who actually have experience with all this stuff and teaches very much based on Visuddhimagga. Sure, I know he's based in Burma, but he travels too, so perhaps you can meet him when he's visiting close to where you are. Also there are several of his pupils that are now teachers in their own right - I think there was one based in Singapore and another one in the US, so they might be easier to get in contact with. Also there are several people here I think that went on retreats at Pa-Auk Sayadaw's centre. Try contacting them. Either way it seems like a better thing to do than getting frustrated, and I would add - in the meantime practice your (full absorption) jhanas (and learn abhidhamma ) so you'll know what they're talking about when you actually meet them.

Best wishes

[Freawaru]

Hi meindzai,

Based on my undestanding of citta, the mind in general doesn't ever do more than one thing at a time, though it can and does create the illusion of doing so by rapidly switching amongst various objects, much the same way computers multitask. i.e. we don't even hear and see at the same time, but the rapid alteration of mind-moments make it seem this way.

Yes, I guess this is how it works when looking at it on the Abhidhammic level. After all, one is AWARE of both "hands" (or more of them) simultaneously.

Though back on usenet once somebody gave a cool concentration exercise once, involving mentally counting forward from 1 to 10 while also counting backwards from 10 to 1. Pretty much makes smoke come out of my ears!

[Freawaru]

Hi pt1,

I don't see the point of playing with formless jhanas, because iddhis happen through the mastery of the fourth (form realm) jhana (I think).

But why does Visuddhimagga 12 then not only teach fourth form realm jhana? Why all this playing with entering and leaving kasinas and all eight jhanas?

Well, not sure how much getting frustrated helps

I am sure it is not helpful at all ...

but I think it's normal to go through several teachers before you find the one that suits you. I think I already mentioned Pa-Auk Sayadaw before.

Yes, I read an on-line book by him.

From what I gather online he's one of the few respected teachers who actually have experience with all this stuff and teaches very much based on Visuddhimagga. Sure, I know he's based in Burma, but he travels too, so perhaps you can meet him when he's visiting close to where you are. Also there are several of his pupils that are now teachers in their own right - I think there was one based in Singapore and another one in the US, so they might be easier to get in contact with. Also there are several people here I think that went on retreats at Pa-Auk Sayadaw's centre. Try contacting them. Either way it seems like a better thing to do than getting frustrated, and I would add - in the meantime practice your (full absorption) jhanas (and learn abhidhamma )

Yeah, yeah, yeah, if I can find someone who can give those definitions based on experience ...

so you'll know what they're talking about when you actually meet them.

Best wishes

Thank you

[appicchato]

...if I can find someone who can give those definitions based on experience ...

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/

Perhaps there's someone there that can shed some light on your queries...

[pt1]

But why does Visuddhimagga 12 then not only teach fourth form realm jhana? Why all this playing with entering and leaving kasinas and all eight jhanas?

Hm, not sure. Maybe it has to do with safety? I mean, I think the sequence was - one first gains jhana mastery (entering, exiting and changing jhanas at will, etc) and only then starts with iddhis. E.g. imagine a scenario where electricity is suddenly off in your town and so you decide to use your iddhis to cook dinner (something I think I read that Dipa Ma taught her daughters how to do). And so, you start the rapid switching between fourth jhana and access concentration with element of fire in order to produce heat for cooking. And somewhere there, in the middle of the switching, you accidentally forget to use a kasina for the fourth jhana, and you accidentally end up in jhana of infinite space without knowing how to exit quickly. And as a result, the heat you were generating to heat up a small pot of soup suddenly expands and burns you entire kitchen, or more...

I don't really know obviously...

Anyway, I checked a bit online regarding where you could ask your questions:

This is a US website of two Pa Auk Sayadaw's pupils - as far as I can see from this page:
http://www.jhanasadvice.com/id4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they won't mind answering questions for free, or paid if you want to ask a lot. Not sure if they know iddhis, but they should know a lot about visuddhimagga type jhanas.

This is a yahoo group that seems to be focused on teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw and his pupil Sayalay Dipankara who's based in Singapore:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pa-Auk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Though can't tell if the group is open to all or only from Malaysia...

Anyway, might be worth checking these out. There must be more stuff online for people interested in visuddhimagga type jhanas, iddhis, etc. Maybe someone else can point to more sources.

Best wishes

[Freawaru]

...if I can find someone who can give those definitions based on experience ...

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/

Perhaps there's someone there that can shed some light on your queries...

Dear Bhante,

thank you for the link

[Freawaru]

But why does Visuddhimagga 12 then not only teach fourth form realm jhana? Why all this playing with entering and leaving kasinas and all eight jhanas?

Hm, not sure. Maybe it has to do with safety? I mean, I think the sequence was - one first gains jhana mastery (entering, exiting and changing jhanas at will, etc) and only then starts with iddhis. E.g. imagine a scenario where electricity is suddenly off in your town and so you decide to use your iddhis to cook dinner (something I think I read that Dipa Ma taught her daughters how to do). And so, you start the rapid switching between fourth jhana and access concentration with element of fire in order to produce heat for cooking. And somewhere there, in the middle of the switching, you accidentally forget to use a kasina for the fourth jhana, and you accidentally end up in jhana of infinite space without knowing how to exit quickly. And as a result, the heat you were generating to heat up a small pot of soup suddenly expands and burns you entire kitchen, or more...

Ah, okay, I am convinced

Seriously. I think some kind of Hogwarts would be useful. I wouldn't want pyrokinesis getting out of control. Luckily, I never have been experiencing this particular one (as far as I recall). But I remember the time I would jump into states I didn't even fully recall afterwards (all of them blissful but that is not much of a description) even when driving the car. At first it freaked me out, I feared there might be accidents when "I" wasn't around to drive the car. Fortunately, this never was the case, the character must have been driving without "me".

Anyway, I checked a bit online regarding where you could ask your questions:

This is a US website of two Pa Auk Sayadaw's pupils - as far as I can see from this page:
http://www.jhanasadvice.com/id4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they won't mind answering questions for free, or paid if you want to ask a lot. Not sure if they know iddhis, but they should know a lot about visuddhimagga type jhanas.

This is a yahoo group that seems to be focused on teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw and his pupil Sayalay Dipankara who's based in Singapore:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pa-Auk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Though can't tell if the group is open to all or only from Malaysia...

Anyway, might be worth checking these out. There must be more stuff online for people interested in visuddhimagga type jhanas, iddhis, etc. Maybe someone else can point to more sources.

Best wishes

Thank you for the links and all your help

[Assaji]

Hi Freawaru,

IMHO the best result of all the jhana mastery is that it helps to enter the emptiness (sunnata), the themeless (animitta). One gets enough of all these bases of concentration and can do without them :^)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro

[Freawaru]

Hi Dmytro,

Hi Freawaru,

IMHO the best result of all the jhana mastery is that it helps to enter the emptiness (sunnata), the themeless (animitta). One gets enough of all these bases of concentration and can do without them :^)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro

Thank you.

Isn't it remarkable that emptiness is always connected with the heart?

Do you know why there are these repetitions? As if there are two discerning faculties addressed? Or maybe a kind of echo???

'One of poor discernment, one of poor discernment': Thus is it said. To what extent is one said to be 'one of poor discernment'?"
"'One doesn't discern, one doesn't discern': Thus, friend, one is said to be 'one of poor discernment.'
...
asked him a further question: "Discerning, discerning': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is one said to be 'discerning'?"

"'One discerns, one discerns': Thus, friend, one is said to be 'discerning.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;