Buddhism based on fear/hope?

[acinteyyo]

I think Buddhism is based on wisdom. The whole talking about suffering is because of knowledge and wisdom about what suffering really is, what it really means, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation. It is said that the Dhamma is to be known by the wise, not by the afraid ones or the hopeful ones. Those are not called to be the wise, they're called to be the foolish, because of their ignorance with respect to the truths of suffering.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Laurens]

I think that any faith that speaks about life time after life time of suffering is based upon fear.

Suffering is something we naturally fear as humans, and it is given an awful lot of weight in Buddhism. I would say definately there is a large element of fear involved.

So if Buddhism taught that at the end of your life that's it, you totally cease to exist is that something that you think would not evoke fear in people?

Fear comes from within not from outside. Two people boarding a plane at the same time, one fears crashing and/or terrorists and the other doesn't, who's fault is that?

Fear does come from inside, but is a response to external stimili. Even schitzophrenic people base their paranoid delusions on some kind of misdirected logic that is based upon external events (or seemingly external events ie hallucinations). A fear that the government is watching them through their TV set is not entirely conjured up in their head - it is a response to things they see and hear (including hallucinations) that they interpret as being evidence to back up their delusion. Perhaps they hear a sentence on the TV that stands out, and is interpreted to mean something other than that which it was intended to mean and so on. A fear does not often spring up from nowhere, it usually has its grounding in external phenomina. So I would say that fear is an internal response to something external. That is not to say fear is always founded in truth or rationality - it is often founded in delusion, but nonetheless it is still a cognitive response to something outside of one's self.

That means that what people teach you, whether it be on the news or at your local church or dhamma centre can have an impact upon your fears. During the Cold War there was mass paranoia in America due to the supposed threat of communists - this was not something that sprang up of its own accord in people's minds, conjured out of nowhere, it was a response to what they were reading in the newspapers, what they were hearing on the radio and what they were seeing on the TV. Obviously not all beings are affected like this, some can see through hysteria and thus remain unafraid, but fear is something that can easily be imposed upon people.

Humans are afraid of suffering. To teach people that there is a beginingless cycle of suffering, is in most people going to touch upon that fear. In Buddhism suffering is talked about all the time. I feel that it has an almost brainwashing affect. You start to think in terms of everything being suffering, and when you think in those terms, of course everything appears to be suffering and the notion reinforces itself. Suffering and fear go hand in hand. A religion that constantly speaks about suffering is in most people going to raise some kind of fear. I personally feel that there is a lot of fear in Buddhism. It might be subtle, but its there. Fear is intergral to the survival of most religions, and I don't think that Buddhism is immune to this.

I do not fear rebirth in a lower realm, nor do I hope for rebirth in a higher realm. I think it is extremely unlikely that conciousness, in any form can survive the death of the brain, and to assume that it can, based upon what some guy 2500 years ago said is, in my view, utterly irrational.

[notself]

It bothers me that someone else will suffer because of my unskillful actions in this life. At the same time I am extremely grateful for the skillful actions of those who preceded me.

Am I off base with my understanding?

I don't think this is the way anatta should be understood. You are not more the one you were 10 min ago than the one you were 10 lives back.

Anatta is the concept of no eternal unchanging self. When the kamma stream continues in all of its complexity it continues in a new form, with new feeling, perception, and mental formation. Since these things in a conscious person form the conventional self, no such conventional self is reborn. I would not be "me" if all of these things were different. 10 lives back could be a tiger. That tiger would have a different conventional self. The one who follows after will not have the same conventional self.

[Dan74]

In Buddhism suffering is talked about all the time. I feel that it has an almost brainwashing affect.

Not in my experience. None of the teachers I have heard, nor my teacher I have studied with extensively, emphasized suffering. Life is what it is. And what it is becomes clearer through meditation. Dukkha is more of an unsatisfactoriness inherent in all impermanent phenomena as long as clinging is present. It becomes clear through insight, not because anyone tells us so. And the whole purpose is to let go. Then life is just what it is, not what is lacking or what we don't want.

[Ben]

Dear Laurens

I hope you get the opportunity to go and do a residential retreat of intensive meditation. I think it will give you the clarity that you seem to be seeking. The Buddha, as far as I am aware, never required blind acceptance of this or that doctrine. What he did say was that the Dhamma was discoverable by oneself, by one's own efforts. He invited people to try it for themselves, ehi passiko.
kind regards

Ben

[Sekha]

I think Buddhism is based on wisdom. The whole talking about suffering is because of knowledge and wisdom about what suffering really is, what it really means, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation. It is said that the Dhamma is to be known by the wise, not by the afraid ones or the hopeful ones. Those are not called to be the wise, they're called to be the foolish, because of their ignorance with respect to the truths of suffering.

best wishes, acinteyyo

I would say the whole path is based on suffering and the will not to suffer any more, which could be the fear of suffering

The knowledge of destruction [of effluents] with respect to destruction has a supporting condition...
And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' ...
And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' ...
And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' ...
And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' ...
And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' ...
And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' ...
And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' ...
And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' ...
And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' ...
And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' ...
And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html

[Goofaholix]

Fear does come from inside, but is a response to external stimili. Even schitzophrenic people base their paranoid delusions on some kind of misdirected logic that is based upon external events (or seemingly external events ie hallucinations). A fear that the government is watching them through their TV set is not entirely conjured up in their head - it is a response to things they see and hear (including hallucinations) that they interpret as being evidence to back up their delusion. Perhaps they hear a sentence on the TV that stands out, and is interpreted to mean something other than that which it was intended to mean and so on. A fear does not often spring up from nowhere, it usually has its grounding in external phenomina. So I would say that fear is an internal response to something external. That is not to say fear is always founded in truth or rationality - it is often founded in delusion, but nonetheless it is still a cognitive response to something outside of one's self.

That means that what people teach you, whether it be on the news or at your local church or dhamma centre can have an impact upon your fears. During the Cold War there was mass paranoia in America due to the supposed threat of communists - this was not something that sprang up of its own accord in people's minds, conjured out of nowhere, it was a response to what they were reading in the newspapers, what they were hearing on the radio and what they were seeing on the TV. Obviously not all beings are affected like this, some can see through hysteria and thus remain unafraid, but fear is something that can easily be imposed upon people.

Humans are afraid of suffering. To teach people that there is a beginingless cycle of suffering, is in most people going to touch upon that fear. In Buddhism suffering is talked about all the time. I feel that it has an almost brainwashing affect. You start to think in terms of everything being suffering, and when you think in those terms, of course everything appears to be suffering and the notion reinforces itself. Suffering and fear go hand in hand. A religion that constantly speaks about suffering is in most people going to raise some kind of fear. I personally feel that there is a lot of fear in Buddhism. It might be subtle, but its there. Fear is intergral to the survival of most religions, and I don't think that Buddhism is immune to this.

I do not fear rebirth in a lower realm, nor do I hope for rebirth in a higher realm. I think it is extremely unlikely that conciousness, in any form can survive the death of the brain, and to assume that it can, based upon what some guy 2500 years ago said is, in my view, utterly irrational.

Dan74 brings up a good point, though we use the word "suffering" as a translation of dukkha most of us realise that this is a pretty poor translation and a better translation is unsatisfactoriness.

I really don't think a lot of people are going to be too fearful of lifetimes of unsatisfactoriness, bored or depressed maybe but not fearful.

Yes you are right that while fear does come from inside it is generally stimulated from outside, and we are right not to trust religious groups that rely on such stimulation I guess is your main point. This doesn't however explain why nobody here has been willing to admit that their Buddhist path is motivated by fear, do you think we are all deluded?

I too don't hope for a better rebirth nor fear a lower one, I've got my handsful with this life and all the Buddhist teaching I've received focuses on this life downplaying possible future lives. The only certainty I have is that if there is a future "me" then this life won't be remembered, so my focus is on making the most of this life by learning to live in accordance with wisdom. I don't see the relevance of fear in that.

Now it could well be that uneducated village folk in SE Asia are motivated by fear, I don't know, but I seriously doubt any westerners come to Buddhism or stay in it motivated by fear.

[appicchato]

...uneducated village folk in SE Asia...

As opposed to the educated urban Occidental?...in so many ways, and so much more meaningful, the exact opposite has been my experience...

[Ben]

...uneducated village folk in SE Asia...

As opposed to the educated urban Occidental?...in so many ways, and so much more meaningful, the exact opposite has been my experience...

Sadhu!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings bhante,

...uneducated village folk in SE Asia...

As opposed to the educated urban Occidental?...in so many ways, and so much more meaningful, the exact opposite has been my experience...

That the village folk in SE Asia are not motivated by fear, whereas the urban Occidental is?

Metta,
Retro.

[notself]

Fear is just something else to analyze. I was afraid when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I analyzed it to determine what exactly I was afraid of. It was death. While waiting to have a partial mastectomy, I asked, why am I afraid of death? I worked on that question and the fear went away.

I started 33 days of radiation. I hated and feared every treatment. I got blisters and a radiation burn. I got over it.

One year later the radiologist found another lump. ( I am at high risk for recurrence but turned down chemo because the risk of congestive heart failure was 11% and the chemo would reduce my recurrence risk by 5%.) I had a biopsy and waited four days for the result. I was afraid. I analyzed this fear. This time I found out I was afraid of the horrific treatments that I would endure if it was a recurrence. The fear went away leaving me still fearing chemo, but certain in my mind that I was not afraid of death. I would accept it if and when I had to. The results came back negative.

One year after this, the radiologist saw a suspicious spot in the other breast. Another biopsy and this time a wait of six days. During this time I analyzed my fear of treatment and I realized that I no longer feared chemo but would accept it if and when I had to. When the results came back negative for cancer I was very pleased but I was already accepting of any result. The fear of chemo was gone.

Now I am afraid. My brother has just been diagnosed with his second oral cancer. He may or may not lose his jaw. He may or may not be on a stomach feeding tube for weeks or months. He may need radiation. He made need chemo. He may die. I am filled again with fear and I am analyzing every second of it. This fear for the well being of another is the hardest fear yet.

The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

[Goofaholix]

Greetings bhante,

...uneducated village folk in SE Asia...

As opposed to the educated urban Occidental?...in so many ways, and so much more meaningful, the exact opposite has been my experience...

That the village folk in SE Asia are not motivated by fear, whereas the urban Occidental is?

Metta,
Retro.

I think that probably wasn't the meaning.

I've been around SE Asia a fair bit, not nearly as much as Appicchato, and I find that people who are connected with practice oriented monasteries have the demeanor of joy, a sense of duty or purpose, but I've never noticed fear.

However I know there is also a lot of superstition in SE Asia too, this may well be motivated by fear. My point should have been phrased as a question as I was wondering whether these were the people Laurens was concerned about.

[Goofaholix]

The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

This is what it's all about, a good example of how it's supposed to work that puts things in perspective, thanks for sharing it.

[appicchato]

I hope everything works out well for you and your brother notself...

However I know there is also a lot of superstition in SE Asia too, this may well be motivated by fear. My point should have been phrased as a question as I was wondering whether these were the people Laurens was concerned about.

I could have perhaps phrased my statement a little differently, and more explicitly, too Goof...and in reference to superstition in SE Asia, there is a lot of it, and education, again, in my experience, has shown that education has very little bearing on the matter...it's basically part of everyone's makeup here...

[Paññāsikhara]

My questions for Dhammawheel members:

-- Do you agree with this definition of a Buddhist? Are these statements from Vajrayana practitioners consistent with the Theravadin view of taking refuge?
...

It seems that most of the replies have been in terms of "The reasons why I took refuge ..." and not "Theravada view of refuge".

A question may be as to whether or not these statements* are consistent with that of the "Theravada view", and whether or not members here have such views, are or are not exactly the same thing.

Experience may tell us that the views of the average person on an online Buddhist forum don't necessarily match how a given school is practiced in general over the course of thousands of years. "Theravada view" may be a pretty old, ancient, thing.

Though we often like to think that our view is very orthodox (Theravada on a forum like this), is it really so?

* Actually, for the Dalai Lama, these are not "Vajrayana" statements, but are key part of the exoteric (not esoteric, Vajra) Mahayana path, as exemplified in the Gelug-pa text, Je Tsong Khapa's Great Treatise on the Path to Awakening (Lamrim Chenmo). Though not even all the Mahayana would agree with it.

[Paññāsikhara]

As far as Theravada views on the matter go, here are a couple of texts for reference and consideration:

AN 4.184 PTS: A ii 173
Abhaya Sutta: Fearless
[The Blessed One said:] "Brahman, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.

Thig 12.1 PTS: vv. 236-251
Punnika: Punnika and the Brahman
If you're afraid of pain,
if you dislike pain,
go to the Awakened One for refuge,
go to the Dhamma & Sangha.
Take on the precepts:
That will lead to your liberation.

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's introduction to the Dhammapa
...
It was the Buddha who, without any aid or guidance, rediscovered the ancient path to deliverance and taught it to countless others. His arising in the world provides the precious opportunity to hear and practice the excellent Dhamma (182, 194). He is the giver and shower of refuge (190-192), the Supreme Teacher who depends on nothing but his own self-evolved wisdom (353).
...
Seeking happiness, afraid of pain, loss and death, man walks the delicate balance between good and evil, purity and defilement, progress and decline. His actions are strung out between these moral antipodes, and because he cannot evade the necessity to choose, he must bear the full responsibility for his decisions. Man's moral freedom is a reason for both dread and jubilation, for by means of his choices he determines his own individual destiny, not only through one life, but through the numerous lives to be turned up by the rolling wheel of samsara. If he chooses wrongly he can sink to the lowest depths of degradation, if he chooses rightly he can make himself worthy even of the homage of the gods. The paths to all destinations branch out from the present, from the ineluctable immediate occasion of conscious choice and action.

And the Dhammapada itself
129. All tremble at violence; all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.
130. All tremble at violence; life is dear to all. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.

For your consideration.

[Aloka]

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and methods of overcoming them with us, Notself. Much appreciated.


I hope your brother doesn't suffer too much and wish him all the very best.

Kind wishes to you,

Aloka

[Annapurna]

So if Buddhism taught that at the end of your life that's it, you totally cease to exist is that something that you think would not evoke fear in people?

Clinging to existence....

[Annapurna]

The only certainty I have is that if there is a future "me" then this life won't be remembered

Don't be so sure...

[Annapurna]

Notself, best wishes for you and your brother also from me!