Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
notself
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by notself »

Fear is just something else to analyze. I was afraid when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I analyzed it to determine what exactly I was afraid of. It was death. While waiting to have a partial mastectomy, I asked, why am I afraid of death? I worked on that question and the fear went away.

I started 33 days of radiation. I hated and feared every treatment. I got blisters and a radiation burn. I got over it.

One year later the radiologist found another lump. ( I am at high risk for recurrence but turned down chemo because the risk of congestive heart failure was 11% and the chemo would reduce my recurrence risk by 5%.) I had a biopsy and waited four days for the result. I was afraid. I analyzed this fear. This time I found out I was afraid of the horrific treatments that I would endure if it was a recurrence. The fear went away leaving me still fearing chemo, but certain in my mind that I was not afraid of death. I would accept it if and when I had to. The results came back negative.

One year after this, the radiologist saw a suspicious spot in the other breast. Another biopsy and this time a wait of six days. During this time I analyzed my fear of treatment and I realized that I no longer feared chemo but would accept it if and when I had to. When the results came back negative for cancer I was very pleased but I was already accepting of any result. The fear of chemo was gone.

Now I am afraid. My brother has just been diagnosed with his second oral cancer. He may or may not lose his jaw. He may or may not be on a stomach feeding tube for weeks or months. He may need radiation. He made need chemo. He may die. I am filled again with fear and I am analyzing every second of it. This fear for the well being of another is the hardest fear yet.

The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Goofaholix
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
appicchato wrote:
...uneducated village folk in SE Asia...
As opposed to the educated urban Occidental?...in so many ways, and so much more meaningful, the exact opposite has been my experience...
That the village folk in SE Asia are not motivated by fear, whereas the urban Occidental is?

Metta,
Retro. :)
I think that probably wasn't the meaning.

I've been around SE Asia a fair bit, not nearly as much as Appicchato, and I find that people who are connected with practice oriented monasteries have the demeanor of joy, a sense of duty or purpose, but I've never noticed fear.

However I know there is also a lot of superstition in SE Asia too, this may well be motivated by fear. My point should have been phrased as a question as I was wondering whether these were the people Laurens was concerned about.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Goofaholix »

notself wrote:The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.
This is what it's all about, a good example of how it's supposed to work that puts things in perspective, thanks for sharing it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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appicchato
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by appicchato »

I hope everything works out well for you and your brother notself...
Goofaholix wrote:However I know there is also a lot of superstition in SE Asia too, this may well be motivated by fear. My point should have been phrased as a question as I was wondering whether these were the people Laurens was concerned about.

I could have perhaps phrased my statement a little differently, and more explicitly, too Goof...and in reference to superstition in SE Asia, there is a lot of it, and education, again, in my experience, has shown that education has very little bearing on the matter...it's basically part of everyone's makeup here...


:focus:
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Lazy_eye wrote: My questions for Dhammawheel members:

-- Do you agree with this definition of a Buddhist? Are these statements from Vajrayana practitioners consistent with the Theravadin view of taking refuge?
...
It seems that most of the replies have been in terms of "The reasons why I took refuge ..." and not "Theravada view of refuge".

A question may be as to whether or not these statements* are consistent with that of the "Theravada view", and whether or not members here have such views, are or are not exactly the same thing.

Experience may tell us that the views of the average person on an online Buddhist forum don't necessarily match how a given school is practiced in general over the course of thousands of years. "Theravada view" may be a pretty old, ancient, thing.

Though we often like to think that our view is very orthodox (Theravada on a forum like this), is it really so?

* Actually, for the Dalai Lama, these are not "Vajrayana" statements, but are key part of the exoteric (not esoteric, Vajra) Mahayana path, as exemplified in the Gelug-pa text, Je Tsong Khapa's Great Treatise on the Path to Awakening (Lamrim Chenmo). Though not even all the Mahayana would agree with it.
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

As far as Theravada views on the matter go, here are a couple of texts for reference and consideration:

AN 4.184 PTS: A ii 173
Abhaya Sutta: Fearless
[The Blessed One said:] "Brahman, there are those who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.

Thig 12.1 PTS: vv. 236-251
Punnika: Punnika and the Brahman
If you're afraid of pain,
if you dislike pain,
go to the Awakened One for refuge,
go to the Dhamma & Sangha.
Take on the precepts:
That will lead to your liberation.

In Bhikkhu Bodhi's introduction to the Dhammapa
...
It was the Buddha who, without any aid or guidance, rediscovered the ancient path to deliverance and taught it to countless others. His arising in the world provides the precious opportunity to hear and practice the excellent Dhamma (182, 194). He is the giver and shower of refuge (190-192), the Supreme Teacher who depends on nothing but his own self-evolved wisdom (353).
...
Seeking happiness, afraid of pain, loss and death, man walks the delicate balance between good and evil, purity and defilement, progress and decline. His actions are strung out between these moral antipodes, and because he cannot evade the necessity to choose, he must bear the full responsibility for his decisions. Man's moral freedom is a reason for both dread and jubilation, for by means of his choices he determines his own individual destiny, not only through one life, but through the numerous lives to be turned up by the rolling wheel of samsara. If he chooses wrongly he can sink to the lowest depths of degradation, if he chooses rightly he can make himself worthy even of the homage of the gods. The paths to all destinations branch out from the present, from the ineluctable immediate occasion of conscious choice and action.

And the Dhammapada itself
129. All tremble at violence; all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.
130. All tremble at violence; life is dear to all. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.

For your consideration. :namaste:
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Aloka
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Aloka »

notself wrote:
Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and methods of overcoming them with us, Notself. Much appreciated.


I hope your brother doesn't suffer too much and wish him all the very best.

Kind wishes to you,

Aloka
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Annapurna
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Annapurna »

Goofaholix wrote:
So if Buddhism taught that at the end of your life that's it, you totally cease to exist is that something that you think would not evoke fear in people?
Clinging to existence....
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Annapurna »

Goofaholix wrote:The only certainty I have is that if there is a future "me" then this life won't be remembered
Don't be so sure...
Last edited by Annapurna on Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Annapurna »

Notself, best wishes for you and your brother also from me!
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by PeterB »

notself wrote:Fear is just something else to analyze. I was afraid when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I analyzed it to determine what exactly I was afraid of. It was death. While waiting to have a partial mastectomy, I asked, why am I afraid of death? I worked on that question and the fear went away.

I started 33 days of radiation. I hated and feared every treatment. I got blisters and a radiation burn. I got over it.

One year later the radiologist found another lump. ( I am at high risk for recurrence but turned down chemo because the risk of congestive heart failure was 11% and the chemo would reduce my recurrence risk by 5%.) I had a biopsy and waited four days for the result. I was afraid. I analyzed this fear. This time I found out I was afraid of the horrific treatments that I would endure if it was a recurrence. The fear went away leaving me still fearing chemo, but certain in my mind that I was not afraid of death. I would accept it if and when I had to. The results came back negative.

One year after this, the radiologist saw a suspicious spot in the other breast. Another biopsy and this time a wait of six days. During this time I analyzed my fear of treatment and I realized that I no longer feared chemo but would accept it if and when I had to. When the results came back negative for cancer I was very pleased but I was already accepting of any result. The fear of chemo was gone.

Now I am afraid. My brother has just been diagnosed with his second oral cancer. He may or may not lose his jaw. He may or may not be on a stomach feeding tube for weeks or months. He may need radiation. He made need chemo. He may die. I am filled again with fear and I am analyzing every second of it. This fear for the well being of another is the hardest fear yet.

The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.
Inspirational. Respect....
:anjali:
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

You find all sorts of approached in the Suttas. Different medicines for different patients. The Buddha used whatever was necessary to get his point across to different personality types and people with different levels of intelligence, education, and spiritual development, using all sorts of communication styles, metaphors, psychological tactics, and language depending on the circumstances. Did he use fear sometimes?

I think maybe so. Why else did he describe in such particularly gruesome detail the horrors of the Six Hells, and I recall one Sutta where he described a series of horrible means of executions used at the time (one was called the Porridge-pot, where a section of the condemned man's skull was removed, and a red-hot metal ball was dropped into his brain). And the Pettavatthu is an entire collection of ghastly stories of what can happen if you don't live a moral life.

However, he also used a myriad of other tactics. I am amazed at the scope of the task he took upon himself when he decided to explain the dhamma to the world. Especially when I I try to get even the simplest aspect of it across and find myself unable to do so with any clarity. :lol:

J
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by baratgab »

Goofaholix wrote:Dan74 brings up a good point, though we use the word "suffering" as a translation of dukkha most of us realise that this is a pretty poor translation and a better translation is unsatisfactoriness.

I really don't think a lot of people are going to be too fearful of lifetimes of unsatisfactoriness, bored or depressed maybe but not fearful.

Yes you are right that while fear does come from inside it is generally stimulated from outside, and we are right not to trust religious groups that rely on such stimulation I guess is your main point. This doesn't however explain why nobody here has been willing to admit that their Buddhist path is motivated by fear, do you think we are all deluded?
Also, with this peculiar obsession with fear one might overlook the fact that the texts are full of descriptions of ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development, from non-clinging. Nearly all part of the gradual training is described as a higher form of pleasant experience in the here and now. Anybody who had a successful meditation can attest that there is absolutely nothing in the usual lay life that could come near to it.

And why is that seclusion from the five senses, seclusion from mental activity brings so much happiness and energy? Because these things are indeed Dukkha. This is the pattern of the whole path: we see a better thing, and we leave the inferior thing behind; with this process we come to understand the true nature of more and more things. This is very different from the fault-finding and the obsessive self-control that a lot of western people tend to do; with this attitude no wonder that they become depressed and disillusioned, instead of developing.

As for fear in the doctrine, it equals with seeing the danger in things. And seeing the danger in things is a very basic underlying factor of everyday secular life and morality. In our current culture, even if we consider ourselves as having more freedom, we see the danger in a lot of things that previously was considered normal. Why is that? Because we know better. The same is true about the practitioners of this path: we start to know better and better, and we see more and more things as needless or detrimental. Again, the point is to safeguard our positive qualities that we developed through the practice. This is very different from the persons who don't really have any higher experience, and embrace the beyond-laity self-restraint by faith or by intellectual ambition. If one doesn't fill these higher forms of conduct with proper spirituality, then having these higher forms of conduct is stress; it is like having the rough mind of an alcoholic without drinking alcohol.

Surely, I too had my fair share of misery while following this practice, but it would be folly for me to mistake the miseries for the Dhamma. I found that one of the most challenging things of Dhamma practice is to attain a truthful comprehension of it. In this age of arrogant western intellectuality it is hard to accept that we might completely misunderstand something that was created 2500 years ago; yet precisely this approach is what makes the Dhamma hard to understand.

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.

:anjali:
"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by notself »

Goofaholix
Dan74 brings up a good point, though we use the word "suffering" as a translation of dukkha most of us realise that this is a pretty poor translation and a better translation is unsatisfactoriness...
Yes you are right that while fear does come from inside it is generally stimulated from outside, and we are right not to trust religious groups that rely on such stimulation I guess is your main point. This doesn't however explain why nobody here has been willing to admit that their Buddhist path is motivated by fear, do you think we are all deluded?
Also, with this peculiar obsession with fear one might overlook the fact that the texts are full of descriptions of ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development, from non-clinging. Nearly all part of the gradual training is described as a higher form of pleasant experience in the here and now. Anybody who had a successful meditation can attest that there is absolutely nothing in the usual lay life that could come near to it.
[/quote]

In my opinion the reason no one will say there path is motivated by fear is because it is not. I think we work to overcome fear that comes in our daily lives. The fear of unfavorable rebirth does not dominate our thoughts because we know that just by being born who we are and what we are means that we are sitting on a mountain of good kamma. Everyone on this board is doing his or her darnedest to add to that good kamma for the benefit of the next self.

Most of us aren't constantly bombarded by a culture of superstition. Of course those of us in the USA have to deal with Evangelical Christians, but even in the bible belt, that is no more than irritating. I came to Buddhism motivated by the desire to understand what it is all about. That is what motivates my practice, not fear of a lower rebirth.

When I looked at death, my fear was based on the ending of "my self". When I looked at that I found that the fear of ending was based on the fear of disappearing of not being remembered. When I looked at that I read a sutta that said as part of enlightenment one remembers all past lives. So what is there to fear? Memories are a huge part of who we are. The full memories of enlightenment is what is meant by overcoming death. The enlightened one overcomes not only his own death but the death of all who went before because all those lives are remembered and all those lives reach nibbana with him.

In my experience, facing fear and understanding it has resulted in and increase in joy and equanimity. It has made me more awake than I was before.
baratgab wrote: And why is that seclusion from the five senses, seclusion from mental activity brings so much happiness and energy? Because these things are indeed Dukkha. This is the pattern of the whole path: we see a better thing, and we leave the inferior thing behind; with this process we come to understand the true nature of more and more things. This is very different from the fault-finding and the obsessive self-control that a lot of western people tend to do; with this attitude no wonder that they become depressed and disillusioned, instead of developing.

As for fear in the doctrine, it equals with seeing the danger in things. And seeing the danger in things is a very basic underlying factor of everyday secular life and morality. In our current culture, even if we consider ourselves as having more freedom, we see the danger in a lot of things that previously was considered normal. Why is that? Because we know better. The same is true about the practitioners of this path: we start to know better and better, and we see more and more things as needless or detrimental. Again, the point is to safeguard our positive qualities that we developed through the practice. This is very different from the persons who don't really have any higher experience, and embrace the beyond-laity self-restraint by faith or by intellectual ambition. If one doesn't fill these higher forms of conduct with proper spirituality, then having these higher forms of conduct is stress; it is like having the rough mind of an alcoholic without drinking alcohol.

Surely, I too had my fair share of misery while following this practice, but it would be folly for me to mistake the miseries for the Dhamma. I found that one of the most challenging things of Dhamma practice is to attain a truthful comprehension of it. In this age of arrogant western intellectuality it is hard to accept that we might completely misunderstand something that was created 2500 years ago; yet precisely this approach is what makes the Dhamma hard to understand.

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.
:anjali:
Well said. Ditto. :clap:
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Dan74
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Re: Buddhism based on fear/hope?

Post by Dan74 »

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.
Maybe it's a question of age, but as much as our culture, our milieu and of course our parents have screwed us up", I find the approach that works rather is gratitude and responsibility. Sure we've got to acknowledge the conditioning where it is present, but rather than denigrate some or all of the above (which are really inseparable from ourselves) to acknowledge much good that we've also received and take responsibility for what we do with it now might be more constructive.

Might just be a cranky (and sick) old man (of 36) talking here though.
_/|\_
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