Buddhism based on fear/hope?

[PeterB]

Fear is just something else to analyze. I was afraid when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I analyzed it to determine what exactly I was afraid of. It was death. While waiting to have a partial mastectomy, I asked, why am I afraid of death? I worked on that question and the fear went away.

I started 33 days of radiation. I hated and feared every treatment. I got blisters and a radiation burn. I got over it.

One year later the radiologist found another lump. ( I am at high risk for recurrence but turned down chemo because the risk of congestive heart failure was 11% and the chemo would reduce my recurrence risk by 5%.) I had a biopsy and waited four days for the result. I was afraid. I analyzed this fear. This time I found out I was afraid of the horrific treatments that I would endure if it was a recurrence. The fear went away leaving me still fearing chemo, but certain in my mind that I was not afraid of death. I would accept it if and when I had to. The results came back negative.

One year after this, the radiologist saw a suspicious spot in the other breast. Another biopsy and this time a wait of six days. During this time I analyzed my fear of treatment and I realized that I no longer feared chemo but would accept it if and when I had to. When the results came back negative for cancer I was very pleased but I was already accepting of any result. The fear of chemo was gone.

Now I am afraid. My brother has just been diagnosed with his second oral cancer. He may or may not lose his jaw. He may or may not be on a stomach feeding tube for weeks or months. He may need radiation. He made need chemo. He may die. I am filled again with fear and I am analyzing every second of it. This fear for the well being of another is the hardest fear yet.

The Buddha taught us how to deal with suffering and fear. He taught us to analyze our emotions, not suppress them or be paralyzed by them or cling to them. He gave us tools to use to end suffering.

Those of you who think there is too much talk about suffering are missing the point. I do not fear the realm of hungry ghosts or a lower rebirth. The Buddha emphasize ending suffering. And his way works. I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

Inspirational. Respect....

[BubbaBuddhist]

You find all sorts of approached in the Suttas. Different medicines for different patients. The Buddha used whatever was necessary to get his point across to different personality types and people with different levels of intelligence, education, and spiritual development, using all sorts of communication styles, metaphors, psychological tactics, and language depending on the circumstances. Did he use fear sometimes?

I think maybe so. Why else did he describe in such particularly gruesome detail the horrors of the Six Hells, and I recall one Sutta where he described a series of horrible means of executions used at the time (one was called the Porridge-pot, where a section of the condemned man's skull was removed, and a red-hot metal ball was dropped into his brain). And the Pettavatthu is an entire collection of ghastly stories of what can happen if you don't live a moral life.

However, he also used a myriad of other tactics. I am amazed at the scope of the task he took upon himself when he decided to explain the dhamma to the world. Especially when I I try to get even the simplest aspect of it across and find myself unable to do so with any clarity.

J

[baratgab]

Dan74 brings up a good point, though we use the word "suffering" as a translation of dukkha most of us realise that this is a pretty poor translation and a better translation is unsatisfactoriness.

I really don't think a lot of people are going to be too fearful of lifetimes of unsatisfactoriness, bored or depressed maybe but not fearful.

Yes you are right that while fear does come from inside it is generally stimulated from outside, and we are right not to trust religious groups that rely on such stimulation I guess is your main point. This doesn't however explain why nobody here has been willing to admit that their Buddhist path is motivated by fear, do you think we are all deluded?

Also, with this peculiar obsession with fear one might overlook the fact that the texts are full of descriptions of ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development, from non-clinging. Nearly all part of the gradual training is described as a higher form of pleasant experience in the here and now. Anybody who had a successful meditation can attest that there is absolutely nothing in the usual lay life that could come near to it.

And why is that seclusion from the five senses, seclusion from mental activity brings so much happiness and energy? Because these things are indeed Dukkha. This is the pattern of the whole path: we see a better thing, and we leave the inferior thing behind; with this process we come to understand the true nature of more and more things. This is very different from the fault-finding and the obsessive self-control that a lot of western people tend to do; with this attitude no wonder that they become depressed and disillusioned, instead of developing.

As for fear in the doctrine, it equals with seeing the danger in things. And seeing the danger in things is a very basic underlying factor of everyday secular life and morality. In our current culture, even if we consider ourselves as having more freedom, we see the danger in a lot of things that previously was considered normal. Why is that? Because we know better. The same is true about the practitioners of this path: we start to know better and better, and we see more and more things as needless or detrimental. Again, the point is to safeguard our positive qualities that we developed through the practice. This is very different from the persons who don't really have any higher experience, and embrace the beyond-laity self-restraint by faith or by intellectual ambition. If one doesn't fill these higher forms of conduct with proper spirituality, then having these higher forms of conduct is stress; it is like having the rough mind of an alcoholic without drinking alcohol.

Surely, I too had my fair share of misery while following this practice, but it would be folly for me to mistake the miseries for the Dhamma. I found that one of the most challenging things of Dhamma practice is to attain a truthful comprehension of it. In this age of arrogant western intellectuality it is hard to accept that we might completely misunderstand something that was created 2500 years ago; yet precisely this approach is what makes the Dhamma hard to understand.

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.

[notself]

Goofaholix

Dan74 brings up a good point, though we use the word "suffering" as a translation of dukkha most of us realise that this is a pretty poor translation and a better translation is unsatisfactoriness...
Yes you are right that while fear does come from inside it is generally stimulated from outside, and we are right not to trust religious groups that rely on such stimulation I guess is your main point. This doesn't however explain why nobody here has been willing to admit that their Buddhist path is motivated by fear, do you think we are all deluded?

Also, with this peculiar obsession with fear one might overlook the fact that the texts are full of descriptions of ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development, from non-clinging. Nearly all part of the gradual training is described as a higher form of pleasant experience in the here and now. Anybody who had a successful meditation can attest that there is absolutely nothing in the usual lay life that could come near to it.

[/quote]

In my opinion the reason no one will say there path is motivated by fear is because it is not. I think we work to overcome fear that comes in our daily lives. The fear of unfavorable rebirth does not dominate our thoughts because we know that just by being born who we are and what we are means that we are sitting on a mountain of good kamma. Everyone on this board is doing his or her darnedest to add to that good kamma for the benefit of the next self.

Most of us aren't constantly bombarded by a culture of superstition. Of course those of us in the USA have to deal with Evangelical Christians, but even in the bible belt, that is no more than irritating. I came to Buddhism motivated by the desire to understand what it is all about. That is what motivates my practice, not fear of a lower rebirth.

When I looked at death, my fear was based on the ending of "my self". When I looked at that I found that the fear of ending was based on the fear of disappearing of not being remembered. When I looked at that I read a sutta that said as part of enlightenment one remembers all past lives. So what is there to fear? Memories are a huge part of who we are. The full memories of enlightenment is what is meant by overcoming death. The enlightened one overcomes not only his own death but the death of all who went before because all those lives are remembered and all those lives reach nibbana with him.

In my experience, facing fear and understanding it has resulted in and increase in joy and equanimity. It has made me more awake than I was before.

And why is that seclusion from the five senses, seclusion from mental activity brings so much happiness and energy? Because these things are indeed Dukkha. This is the pattern of the whole path: we see a better thing, and we leave the inferior thing behind; with this process we come to understand the true nature of more and more things. This is very different from the fault-finding and the obsessive self-control that a lot of western people tend to do; with this attitude no wonder that they become depressed and disillusioned, instead of developing.

As for fear in the doctrine, it equals with seeing the danger in things. And seeing the danger in things is a very basic underlying factor of everyday secular life and morality. In our current culture, even if we consider ourselves as having more freedom, we see the danger in a lot of things that previously was considered normal. Why is that? Because we know better. The same is true about the practitioners of this path: we start to know better and better, and we see more and more things as needless or detrimental. Again, the point is to safeguard our positive qualities that we developed through the practice. This is very different from the persons who don't really have any higher experience, and embrace the beyond-laity self-restraint by faith or by intellectual ambition. If one doesn't fill these higher forms of conduct with proper spirituality, then having these higher forms of conduct is stress; it is like having the rough mind of an alcoholic without drinking alcohol.

Surely, I too had my fair share of misery while following this practice, but it would be folly for me to mistake the miseries for the Dhamma. I found that one of the most challenging things of Dhamma practice is to attain a truthful comprehension of it. In this age of arrogant western intellectuality it is hard to accept that we might completely misunderstand something that was created 2500 years ago; yet precisely this approach is what makes the Dhamma hard to understand.

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.

Well said. Ditto.

[Dan74]

As a personal side note, my current view is that most of the fear, mental suffering and depression in my life, including the fear, mental suffering and depression with the Dhamma practice, came from my western cultural conditioning. There is increasing awareness about the aggressive and detrimental nature of this culture; for example, see the books of Derrick Jensen.

Maybe it's a question of age, but as much as our culture, our milieu and of course our parents have screwed us up", I find the approach that works rather is gratitude and responsibility. Sure we've got to acknowledge the conditioning where it is present, but rather than denigrate some or all of the above (which are really inseparable from ourselves) to acknowledge much good that we've also received and take responsibility for what we do with it now might be more constructive.

Might just be a cranky (and sick) old man (of 36) talking here though.

[notself]

Derrick Jensen has some interesting comments.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7918347967

[Lazy_eye]

Having posed thirteen overlapping questions, I should at least try to answer some of them myself. I've been selfishly enjoying the discussion so far.

I sometimes feel that we (meaning, loosely, "Western Buddhists") are coming at things backwards. From what I gather, belief in cyclical rebirth predated the Buddha, and the Dhamma was a response to the problem of endlessly roiling about in samsara. Coming from a different cultural milieu, though, we are likely to be attracted to the Buddha's teachings before we come to terms with the "given" of kammic rebirth.

So in a sense we are embracing the solution without necessarily accepting the problem. Or perhaps we might be inclined to redefine the problem.

Has fear been an important motivator in your practice/decision to take refuge?

I know where some things lead and would prefer not to go there. By analogy, someone might choose not to take drugs because they are aware of the potential for suffering. So I like to think it is more of a rational choice than an unexamined emotional response.

However, maybe we are too quick to dismiss fear because we see it as something non-rational, primal, anti-modern. Modern societies have chronic anxiety problems, often rooted in a fear of not being in control. I'm not sure the way we deal with these anxieties is necessarily superior. What we label as "superstition" or "religious myth" may be an outlet for people accustomed to expressing themselves in that mode, rather than in (say) pop psychology jargon. Have to be a bit careful about our hidden assumptions.

Do you have a powerful belief in the existence of hells -- powerful enough to motivate you to make life decisions based on that fear? On the flip side, do you have a powerful belief in the existence of heavens? What is your belief based on? Did you have it before you came to Buddhism?

Lurid depictions of hell don't do it for me -- too much of an affront to my rationalist-empiricist sensibilities. In a more generalized way, though, I can accept the possibility of mind states that are miserable or blissful to a degree beyond human comprehension.

I do find myself contemplating the possibility of animal rebirth.

If you became convinced that the threat of rebirth in the lower realms is not real, how would your practice be affected (if at all)?

My first encounters with Buddhism were through sources that placed little or no emphasis on kamma, and what puzzled me at the time was the apparent lack of a logical necessity for sila. After all, if it's all just phenomena arising and passing away, there's no special reason to act ethically -- wholesome and unwholesome behavior is all water under the bridge, so why worry? In other words, there's a risk of nihilism which other parts of the dhamma are meant to counterbalance. The possibility of experiencing a pleasant/unpleasant vipaka is a kind of scaffolding which holds up Buddhist ethical principles. Now is the scaffolding necessary, or can it get kicked away at some point? I don't know...

If you have ever considered (or might consider) ordaining or otherwise renouncing worldly life, how contingent is this decision on the possibility of (literal) rebirth in the lower realms -- or the possibility of heaven? If you did not believe these are real possibilities, would there be any point to a monastic life? Would you still "give it all up" if there was no (literal) benefit to be gained in the afterlife, or would you look instead for worldly fulfillment?

Ordaining isn't a guarantee of avoiding the lower realms -- actually, there might be even greater risks for a monk or nun. The demands are tough and it might be easy to go astray and break one's vows. I'd imagine the key motivators for ordaining are intense awareness of dukkha and a correspondingly strong "calling" or vocation for the spiritual life. Perhaps those who renounce worldly pleasures do not see these as fulfilling, or they are after something beyond/higher, as baratgab suggests. The point made earlier about the ease, joy and happiness that arise from spiritual development is a very interesting one.

There is pleasure
and there is bliss.
Forego the one
for the sake of the other

True, I would be concerned if someone just up and ordained due to dread of being impaled in the avici hells. Then again, wasn't that what made such an impression on Hakuin, one of the greatest Zen masters?

[ground]

I sometimes feel that we (meaning, loosely, "Western Buddhists") are coming at things backwards. From what I gather, belief in cyclical rebirth predated the Buddha, and the Dhamma was a response to the problem of endlessly roiling about in samsara. Coming from a different cultural milieu, though, we are likely to be attracted to the Buddha's teachings before we come to terms with the "given" of kammic rebirth.

So in a sense we are embracing the solution without necessarily accepting the problem. Or perhaps we might be inclined to redefine the problem.

The (immediate) "problem" is dukkha which may be experienced and verified by valid cognition. Actually there is the need for insight but no need for metaphysics in the context of the 4 noble truths.

Kind regards

[notself]

Understanding Dukkha and Anicca are the keys to a strong practice. I have Dukkha down pat. Anicca is coming along and after I get that down there is that pesky Anatta to figure out. From all the differing opinions about what Anatta means, I think that one will take a while. The conventional self is obstinate. Rebirth doesn't directly enter into any of these three things nor does kamma.

[Thai_Theravada]

"Based on truth"

Truth is present, the present no fear or hope,
It's just happen and end.

[ando]

Hi all,
The Dalai Lama has defined a Buddhist as "one who, motivated by fear of suffering in the lower realms, takes refuge in the Triple Jewels" (my paraphrase...I don't have the specific passage in front of me just now). Elsewhere, he writes "to take refuge, two conditions must be present -- fear of rebirth in the three lower realms, and faith in the power of the objects of refuge to protect you from this threat".

I just thought I'd share a preamble written by Thanissaro Bhikkhu in this study guide that sounds rather similar to the Dalai Lama's statement:

An anthropologist once questioned an Eskimo shaman about his tribe's belief system. After putting up with the anthropologist's questions for a while, the shaman finally told him: "Look. We don't believe. We fear."

In a similar way, Buddhism starts, not with a belief, but with a fear of very present dangers.

Personally, I found Buddhism when trying to find a way to deal with life's pains. If there was any fear on my part, it was the fear of being unable to avoid the unbearable.

By the way, saw the quote about the uneducated village folk in SE Asia and thought it was funny because I am living in a village in SE Asia...

[Wind]

My motivation in Buddhism has never been out of fear but has always been to seek the Truth. Life is a great mystery and Buddhism provides the answers. I enjoy learning and enjoy developing compassion and loving-kindness to all sentient beings. It makes me happy when others are happy too. So for me, Buddhism is base on Truth, Wisdom, Freedom, and Loving-kindness.

[Nibbida]

I think that any faith that speaks about life time after life time of suffering is based upon fear.

Suffering is something we naturally fear as humans, and it is given an awful lot of weight in Buddhism. I would say definately there is a large element of fear involved.

So if Buddhism taught that at the end of your life that's it, you totally cease to exist is that something that you think would not evoke fear in people?

Fear comes from within not from outside. Two people boarding a plane at the same time, one fears crashing and/or terrorists and the other doesn't, who's fault is that?

The difference is that "end of your life and that's it" is not contingent upon what you do. The idea that choices will meet with consequences after death is a common theme in Buddhism and other religions. The main difference in Buddhism seems to be how it conceives of who/what will experience those consequences. So it could be interpreted by some as "if you do X you'll be punished by karma," (e.g. My Name Is Earl) but that seems to miss the point of the Dhamma. The Buddha said in the Kalama Sutta that if there is no hereafter, then you still lead a good life by practicing the Dhamma, and if there is a hereafter, you're doubly rewarded. That's clearly not a fear/threat-based approach.

Suffering is given a lot of weight in Buddhism (e.g. Four Noble Truths, 12 Links of DO), but I have found that a great deal of emphasis is also given to joy (piti), contentment (sukha), tranquility (passddhi) and many other positive qualities (e.g. Seven Factors of Awakening, Jhana factors). Relative disregard or unawareness of these aspects of Buddhism by Westerners has led many to mistakenly think of Buddhism as pessimistic or based on fear.

My practice is not based on fear. To the contrary, my sense of fear has been falling away steadily since I began practicing. I do avoid dangerous situations and unskillful actions as much as possible. So it's still a normal, functional way of living. But acting out of a compulsive avoidance of fear has been steadily diminishing over time. At times, it's required me to re-adjust my motivations because I realize how motivated I was by fear in the past. At work, for example, I noticed that I was no longer fearful of the consequences of not completing some task. I wondered for a moment whether this might be a problem. How would I get anything done? I quickly shifted to kindness/compasison. Rather than doing something because I'm afraid of the consequences of not doing it, I would find ways to frame each action in terms of how it might benefit others. In the end, the same tasks got completed, but the motivation had shifted. It has been a much-welcomed change.

I understand the HHDL/vajrayana view, from a practical perspective, as meaning that we can certainly conceive of unskillful actions in difficult situations (e.g. telling someone off, physically harming someone). However, we can also imagine the disastrous outcomes of those choices and know that that's something we want to avoid. In giving in to anger and acting on it, we are "reborn" in a "hell realm." You could call wishing to avoid that "fear." I would probably call it "wanting to avoid making myself miserable by making bad choices."

[ground]

Ottappa, fear of wrongdoing, has an external orientation. It is the voice of conscience that warns us of the dire consequences of moral transgression: blame and punishment by others, the painful kammic results of evil deeds, the impediment to our desire for liberation from suffering.

The Guardians of the World

"And what is the treasure of concern? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. This is called the treasure of concern.

Dhana Sutta

[Nibbida]

Fear is just something else to analyze...I have ended my suffering many times by working through the my fear. Each time more fear drops away. I will work through this latest suffering as well and I will be there for my dear brother. I will go into the hell realms and I will come back out.

Notself, thanks for sharing this. It's a powerful example and well-expressed.

My father was diagnosed with liver cancer last fall. He's doing well now, but back then we had no idea what would happen. It was an opportunity for practice second to none in my experience. I can only imagine what it must be like when the life in question is your own.

About 15 years ago, my father had another cancer scare, which turned out to not be cancer. This was before I knew much about the Dhamma. I was overcome with fear and sadness at the time. It didn't do him or me a lick of good. This time around, I was fully aware of the potential lethal outcome and the suffering that might be endured in the meantime. When fear or sadness arose, however, I had the tools to investigate them and to allow them to pass far less clinging and complications. What emerged in their place was a deeply felt sense of compassion, balanced with equanimity. It made me more capable of being caring and actively supportive than I have ever been before, especially compared to times when I was overcome with sadness and fear.

I recently found a great quote from Peace Pilgrim (1982): “Anything you cannot relinquish when it has outlived its usefulness possesses you…”